Defensive vs Evasive

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Defensive vs Evasive

Postby Baromen » Mon May 15, 2006 3:19 pm

I know everyone loooooves defensive, but I've been experimenting with evasive and wonder if anyone's parsed the difference in actual taken damage between the two discs.
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well

Postby bill » Mon May 15, 2006 3:34 pm

I use evasive when I want to use less endurance than a full defensive.

Otherwise they "should" parse out to be the same shouldn't they?

Evasive is just spikier DPS which ultimately gets you dead more often.

IMO.
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Postby Ayragon » Tue May 23, 2006 9:11 am

are they both on the same timer?
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Postby Baromen » Tue May 23, 2006 11:52 am

yes. Defensive/Evasive are on one (they are both 'long' lasting damage reduction discs). Furious (no melee dps from the front. all shots riposited for 12s) and Fortitude (more endurance used, 365 degree protection for 12s) are also on the same timer.
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Postby Zyzzerzazz » Tue May 23, 2006 1:40 pm

evasive = dodge all incomming melee?

Can you still be proced on even if you dodge a blow?
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Postby Baromen » Tue May 23, 2006 1:49 pm

That's a great question.

I am thinking these are both just about the same, but I know that defensive lasts a bit longer.

My original thought process here was that I used evasive against the boss of Tipt because I was chatting with some other warriors who said that was the way to go.

That was the time I went with you and phishn, Zyzz. I took very little damage compared to other times and it was actually quite impressive to me.

My theory is that evasive avoids more damage for a shorter ammount of time and defensive mitigates less damage over a longer period of time. If this is true, then I think for shorter fights with groupable names and the like EVASIVE would be the way to go. On longer fights with raid mobs and stuff with insane hps that are going to live for more than a few minutes defensive lasts longer and thus would be the better choice.

The reasoning is as follows:

I have to look it up, but lets say Evasive is 1min and Defensive is 2min (just for argument's sake). If you fight a boss mob and he dies within 1 minute then you can less damage with evasive.

If the mob is going to live for 3 minutes then you will take less damage in the first minute and much more in the second and third with Evasive, but if you go Defensive, the total ammount of reduced damage will be higher over the course of the whole fight.

I really need to find a parser and just have something beat on me to test this.
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Postby Aboobaka » Tue May 23, 2006 5:11 pm

I dont know if it reciprocates, but I can proc when I miss.
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Postby Xanaii » Tue May 23, 2006 5:22 pm

Just to answer the question. Yes you can have a spell processed on you even if you dodge the actual hit of the 'weapon'. Whether from an NPC to PC or PC to NPC. I know this simply because as a PC we can proc when we miss or get dodged/parried etc and also because those stupid Chaos Claw bastads with Gates and Omens will still proc on you even when using any defensive type disc on my warrior ( don't have furious so can't attest to the full riposte however )

Kind of like to give a visual effect: You have a mob that's fist is glowing fire about to blow off a giant fireball and destroy you. His fist misses you but the fireball still explodes and you're left with crispy body part(s).

And you have the right of it Baromen. It's all about efficiency in my book. For a short HP mob I always used evasive instead of defensive. Much better use of your endurance depending on the situation you're in, and if he's still alive after it runs out, slap on Fortitude and I was always good to go. That's just my word though, and speaking from a slightly old school stand point. I still tank with Shinaii when I have to fight 2k+ hitting mobs just for the Defensive,evasive,fortitude disc on Shinaii just to make things simpler for me and Xerasta when we box. I don't have any of the new defensive discs other than Stonewall and Aura of Runes ( or whatever ) /shrug.
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Postby Baromen » Tue May 23, 2006 5:40 pm

I don't have either stonewall or aura of runes... maybe I should start looking into those :?
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Postby Xanaii » Tue May 23, 2006 6:14 pm

ooh....Stonewall is exactly like Defensive Disc sept it doesn't lower your dmg output, it just snares you, kind of turnes you into a "stone wall" lol.

Defensive and Stonewall both have their times of use. At times you don't want to be snared, like that because it's almost impossible to move backwards. Only when you're corner tanking a mob is Stonewall an option imo.

Aura of Runes is the lv 66 minor muramite rune. It enables you to give yourself a chance to proc a rune that absorbs 400dmg melee/spell for a duration of 1 minute.

Savage Onslaught is the lvl 68 Shadowspine/Muramite Rune. That turns all your critical hits into crippling blows for 30 seconds. And it takes up no other offensive discipline and you can use 15 minutes later! ( this thing rocks hard apples for Shinaii, having almost all the crit AA's, I use it every time it pops =P )
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Postby Jhereg » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:39 pm

Not sure if you want outside feedback, but:

Defensive:
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?i ... ource=Live

Stonewall:
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?i ... ource=Live

Basically tradeoff is snare versus doing less dps.

Evasive:
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?i ... ource=Live

There's a long discussion on tanking mobs on the steelwarrior site at:
http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/sh ... d.php?t=13

Basically boils down to mobs hit in a range of 20 hits. They have a damage base and 20 intervals, so the minimum hit you see is Damage Base + 1*Damage Interval. Maximum hit is Damage Base + 20*Damage Interval.

Stonewall and Defensive only affect the 1-20 range of Damage Intervals, they don't touch the Damage Base. So for mobs that have high Damage Bases in comparison to Intervals, Evasive is better. They use a 0.13 ratio as a rule of thumb.

Shielding %'s affect the Damage Base only.


An example in values? Mob A hits for 1000-2900. So damage base = 900, Damage Interval = 100. Ratio of 100/900 = 0.11.

Stonewall and Defensive affect the 20*100 range, cutting it down 45%. I can't remember offhand how that works but someone can read it, for speed say though 45% of 2000 = 900. So now the mob hits from 965 to 2000. If the tank had 10% shielding, that takes 90hp(900 damage base *.10=90). So 875 to 1910 hps range.


Mob B hits for 886 - 1000 (aneuk twins in Txevu, very rough numbers). It's Damage Base is 880, Damage interval is 6. Ratio is 6/880=0.0068.

Stonewall, defensive affect the 120 range(20*6), 45% of 120 =54. So using it the mob hits from 883 to 946. 10% shielding on the tank = 880*.1 = 88hps off each hit in comparison. So, using Defensive/Stonewall on that kind of mob is useless in comparison, a tank with about 6% shielding using nothing is the same as a tank with 0% shielding using Stonewall. Better still to use the better shielded tank + Evasive Discipline.


A few of the Ikkinz golems you've already encountered seem to have those small ranges of hits, where they hit from 1900-1950 it seems.
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right on

Postby bill » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:36 pm

All info is welcomed Jhereg, great post!
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Postby Antok » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:02 pm

aneuk twins are pretty much the only mobs in the modern game were evasive is substantially better than defensive.

there are some other mobs where theoretically evasive is better - but on most of them, you won't be able to tell, so unless you want to print out a list and keep it by your monitor (which isn't actually a bad idea..,) it's best to use defensive on most everything. (defensive when evasive is better is a slight difference on most mobs, evasive when defensive is better is a bigger difference... that, and in the modern game, defensive is better on 95% of mobs, anyway.)
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