Raising the Bar (Level Limit Increase for Future Members)

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What should be the new level limit?

Poll ended at Thu May 18, 2006 3:44 pm

Level 68
14
33%
Level 70
29
67%
 
Total votes : 43

Postby Ceruis » Sat May 13, 2006 10:21 am

Serano wrote:Isen about 6 posts up.

Serano wrote:
in the real life military you are going to send a group of fresh recruits out of bootcamp into a "tactical" combat zone led by hardened soldiers who have been training years and have had previous field experiance. We send pilots into Strategic combat.
:jester

Sorry, just had to laugh. All I could think about was a certain sergeant who had been driving for the Division CSM since he was a private passing out in his very first attempt to lead soldiers down Table 12 about 200m behind the rest of us.

Sorry /derail off! :spank

Edit: Now for some meat to the post. With Tarvas at 62 it kind of hard to get grp period. A lot of you have showed some kindness and taken me to places like BoT (Thanks Blue, Reverb, Isen, Xanaii, and lot of others) when your farming or board, but it few and far between. I agree with Isen post almost completely.
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Postby Xerasta » Sat May 13, 2006 2:32 pm

I voted to raise the cap to 68 not because I feel any great need to raise the cap itself but because like Xan I perceived this as an attempt to lower the number of incoming aps.

Getting to 68, getting your spells and some moderately decent gear is not that hard. The last 2 levels to 70 can be a killer and getting the spells next to impossible without help. Therefore to my mind if you feel you "must" raise the cap asking aps to be 68 is not unreasonable.

Whatever you choose tho is fine with me.

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Postby arielyn » Sun May 14, 2006 2:15 am

Xerasta wrote:I voted to raise the cap to 68 not because I feel any great need to raise the cap itself but because like Xan I perceived this as an attempt to lower the number of incoming aps.

Getting to 68, getting your spells and some moderately decent gear is not that hard. The last 2 levels to 70 can be a killer and getting the spells next to impossible without help. Therefore to my mind if you feel you "must" raise the cap asking aps to be 68 is not unreasonable.

Whatever you choose tho is fine with me.

Xera


this actually changed my entire vote.

that was the best point made in this entire thread.

68 is a key level, lots of 69 , 70 spells cant be gotten without a raid / good guild. but you get most of your good ones at 68.

cheers xera. seriously, that was the best statement i've read yet (including any nonsence i've typed)
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Postby Shadowboxer » Sun May 14, 2006 9:29 pm

I so agree. :stupid
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Postby arielyn » Sun May 14, 2006 11:07 pm

the only flaw i find in my own logic though is why go through this every few months, which has been mentioned before. As was said, we ARE a raiding guild whether we like it or not. And as I have also said, we should focus on the people we have now rather than new recruits.

the mininum should be 68, unless a toon is just looking for a place to park their ass (and lets face it, all our apps are rearing to go for time flags, its not like we're getting many *want a guild that i can just group in apps*....)




raise the bar. lvl 70, 65\8+ if warrented, needed, or jesus shows up.


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ok

Postby bill » Mon May 15, 2006 11:13 am

Posting "it does not matter" is the biggest oxymoron ever. If it didn't matter, why post? Clearly it does =)

we arent helping him level


Speak for yourself Reverb. I include anyone I can when I group.

Same for you Mechell. Folks, if you don't get along with 100% of the guild, that's alright. You shouldn't expect over 100 ppl to ALL like you, I certainly don't! ...I don't expect to be liked that is, I do love you all tho.

I go LFG too. Big deal. I group outside the guild, it happens, I LIKE grouping outside the guild, I get a break from all you asshats <3.

Poll updates:

Keep the cap at 65: 9
Raise to 68: 12
Raise to 70: 26
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Postby Baromen » Mon May 15, 2006 11:35 am

I guess my thing is it would be nice to just pull up the guild tool when you need a slower and know that any of the slowers we have on have close to if not all of their spells and can do their job.

It would be nice to start an RSS group and be able to grab anyone in the guild.

We have a big spread from strongest to weakest and I tend to be considered on the weakest side sometimes. I know being 70 doesn't change that.

In a perfect world, we'd all be strong enough to do anything with any combination of guildies. I think making the min lvl for apps 70 would help us get to that point, but my own weakness is that point's best counterpoint.
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Postby Xerasta » Mon May 15, 2006 12:25 pm

You are right, being 70 doesn't neccessarily make you stronger. Heck, I don't consider myself as strong as I could be due to missing so many level 70 spells.

Strength should not be gauged by levels and gear anyway. I have seen lots of substandard players in really great gear since coming back. Players who can't assist, can't listen, who blithely play their own game in groups without regard for the rest of the group and do Lord knows what on raids. But my oh my... they do have gear.

I judge strength on how you play the character. I would rather play with someone who is lower level in lower level gear who can pay attention and listen, than an uberwally idiot who trains me, breaks mezzes and causes me to die. Call me silly, but that's how I feel. It's also why I think raising the cap clear to 70 and adding AA and spell requirements might exclude some really fine players who just cannot grind out those 2 levels, get all their AA lined up in a perfect clone of what someone else thinks they need or get their spells.

The last guild guild we were in WAS elitist. You needed the levels and AA and the AA where they told you you had to have it. Apping was not pleasant. I would really hate to see that happen here.
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well

Postby bill » Mon May 15, 2006 12:32 pm

I can say the only time I feel like this is a good idea is when I see our apps getting crushed by current content.

I feel bad for them. Baromen is far from the weakest link and even he feels pressure. What kind of environment is someone lvl 65 with 0aa going to walk into?

This is like roe vs. wade. Should we prevent the guildy from walking into suffering or give them the chance despite what we know will happen?

Rezjo asked me last night what the likelyhood of us doing a Bertoxxulous raid were.

I didn't have the heart to say 0%. I said maybe. He was thinking about doing it tonight if there was interest and I didn't respond.

Show of hands, how many are interested in the 2-hour Bert script tonight to get 1 person their bert flag?

Not picking on Rezjo, just pointing out desires for progression of a level 65 versus what we are doing now.

Maybe I am wrong and many would like to do that raid. I've been wrong before.
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Postby Baromen » Mon May 15, 2006 12:54 pm

Xer, the problem I have is that I feel pressure like Dran said and I am a good player. I don't care if people want to bust balls, but I know what the hell I'm doing and a lot of times I get designated 'off tank' in simple XP groups.

I'm yet to kill anything in RSS.

I just started DoDs because people's alts/boxes need it... for their mains they went elsewhere (and thank you very much for letting me come)

If I start a group, there aren't many people who'd reccomend nest/rss/dods because they look at me and see MPGish written all over me.

If I was 65... I'd never get a single group. It's hard enough to find them with beefy lil gnomes running around making people spoiled. :razz

I've been grouping with Rezjo since he was in his teens and bringing him places I knew I could handle with a druid from the time he got cheal. Why? He's a great friend. I know he, and his group, were getting frustrated with his repeated AE slappings in time, and he's willing to do what it takes to get better. The only reason he will is because he's a cleric. If rezjo was a berzerker/warrior/sk/pal he'd have nothing unless a friend had a spot.

I don't see strict requirements as a bad thing. Maybe it isn't TF's way, but lets say you only want tanks with all defensives and 8k min hp because your guild rarely does any content that needs better. When you pull up the guild tool for a tank, you know you can take any one of them and it will work out fine.

When people move that up because they are doing harder content that requires all resists over 400, 10k/2k, 500aas then what they are doing is guiding people to guilds that spend their time in appropriate content.

It makes getting better fast quite hard, but if you're looking for a guild to grow with naturally, a guild on your level doing things that you can do is the best place to be.

Of course, if the "appropriate" guild isn't run well and doesn't progress you see an app on our forums "guild didn't raid" or "wanted to see more of the game" or "not moving along as a guild" whatever.

We're also in a rough spot in MS/Vaz history. There really aren't a ton of guilds that are run well working on things like VT/PoP anymore. I have a ton of friends in Tenet, but they can't stop the bleeding. Every player that brings something special to the table leaves the guild for a Surreal/Sequel/etc as soon as the opportunity comes because they allready have Time+ gear and don't want to spend the next 2 months flagging a guild only to pass on loot.

If you're looking for a good guild you basically have to gear up in single group content and look for a guild that's allready through time or rot in a non raiding guild.
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or

Postby bill » Mon May 15, 2006 1:12 pm

Or you invest a shitload of time and energy and recreate TF.

We did it, I think.

Zyzz and I used to talk about starting our own guild while we were on hiatus. Instead we just came back and helped TF rock out. Interesting footnote there.

The dilemma has always been there. I was so hardcore about not skipping content I decided to do it TF style instead.

Which is why we like to smell the roses so much. if anyone was wondering. It is because we like to huff the flowers or something )
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Postby Baromen » Mon May 15, 2006 1:15 pm

I was talking about guildless lvl 65 toons with baz gear (that we don't like/won't take/etc)... not TF you silly goose
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Postby Zyzzerzazz » Mon May 15, 2006 1:37 pm

This is all situational

IF - TF was hurting on membership and was" bleeding" we would not be havein this debate.

Since TF is kicking ass with who we have - and anymore ppl added tot eh mix will only hurt us - we are tyring to limit the overkill.

Lv 68+ toon will greratly help this. It will help send us more qualified apps - but we ALL agree that level is NOT the only indicator or quality. Jsut a SLIGHT increase in odds of a good player.

Also - the content thing is a HUGE issue. The 54 person raid seat cap? Hello - I dont want a lv 65 cleric with just Supernatural Ligth spells and 7khp - 5k mana on an Uqua raid....sorry but thats the truth.


Back when guilds were doing Uqqa with lv 65s' thay have better hp/mana then that.

App dieing to AoE's that the rest of us are avoiding / surviveing - the list goes on and on.

So Baroman, whats your issue again?
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Postby Baromen » Mon May 15, 2006 1:52 pm

I was saying that I agree with the lvl increase because it would be nice to fill a slot with the appropriate class without having to consider the person behind the toon.


I know you can't read more than a few lines, so there ya go. :)
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heh

Postby bill » Mon May 15, 2006 1:54 pm

Baro, i was replying to this comment:

If you're looking for a good guild you basically have to gear up in single group content and look for a guild that's allready through time or rot in a non raiding guild.


There is nothing wrong with starting at the beginning and working your way through.

There wasn't a guild like TF back when TF started raiding VP. There has never been another guild quite like us so it is tough for me to compare.

I would have to say CN is probably the closest guild to us. Closer than Sequel is.
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