Raising the Bar (Level Limit Increase for Future Members)

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What should be the new level limit?

Poll ended at Thu May 18, 2006 3:44 pm

Level 68
14
33%
Level 70
29
67%
 
Total votes : 43

quick question

Postby bill » Fri May 12, 2006 3:52 pm

Was it easier to get groups @ 65 or 70? Think about that.

think a lot has to do with it's a game.


I'm not sure who's point you are defending with this statement. It kinda takes the wind out of being for and against the poll.

If it was just a game, then those ppl don't care whether the limit is raised or not then would they?

I mean, we are giving the guild the option to decide this when past guilds would simply do it and be done with it.

This conversation is ALWAYS a point of drama, I knew it before I posted.

However to grow as a guild, this painful experience must be repeated every once in a while. Not of raising the limit so much as discussing it.
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Postby Emenite » Fri May 12, 2006 4:01 pm

Why don't you just make the policy the lvl cap is always the max lvl avail from current expansion. This is the 3rd vote to raise it since i've been in the guild and i'm not even been in the guild a year. Only one expansion has come out since i joined and that was PoR. Would save this headache from rearing its ugly head over and over.
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well

Postby bill » Fri May 12, 2006 4:07 pm

My main concerns are that the members will be effective in the content *we* are bringing them to.

As the content we tackle changes, so do these limits.

As I said on page 1 Zarn, baby steps. That's why I didn't just slap level 70 right away. Some will see this as a bad thing excluding ppl. Others will see this as a way to preserve what we have and to narrow the scope of who we are bringin aboard.

If we had trouble getting new members, I would most definitely be whistling a different toon.
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Postby Serano » Fri May 12, 2006 4:32 pm

Ok - while I always vote against raising the cap -= here are the reasons I see that others want to.

1) Since the center of gravity of players levels has shifted to level 70 it will ultimatly mean that a majority of apps that join at 65 (or less) will find it difficult to find the right groups to play with since the majority of the guild is doing level 70 content

2) lets face it, we are packed. While there are some days that we can not get 54 peeps to a raid most often we have 54 in instanced content and the discriminating factor on catching up is if someone has a box in the raid already or not. This limits the ability of a person to a) be late and expect a chance at catching up to the raid b) live on other than the East coast and expect to be able to catch up. So marking up the recruiting limit to 68 or 70 allows us to slow the apps some what as a step of limiting our membership.

Why do we want to limit our membership in a non mandatory raiding guild? First lets look at definitions. Tribal Fury is not a non raiding guild. TF is a raiding guild and has been since we were in our 30s. However we really cranked it up to a raiding schedule about 6 months prior to us starting DKP in the summer of 03. Peeps we are a raiding guild. We are simply not a mandatory raiding guild - a point a lot of peeps don't grasp. As a raiding guild we still have to juggle manpower with a similar tool set as a full time / mandatory raiding guild but differant based on a great metric that Drannor has established for the last 18 months.

Currently we man Tribal Fury at about 120 active raiding mains. We actually have about 150 active players or more. However on a typical month only about 110 - 120 actual players tagged in TF raid with TF on a DKP producing raid. We have some players that raid with us like once every 3 months. So since there is a metric being used to limit how many players can be in TF - to help prevent peeps from being denied admitance to a TF raid because they are full every night - uping the membership requirements incrimentally allows TF to focus on the members we have vs the folks that would like to join us.

All of that said - later when we add other criteria like ammount of AA which we have resisted it is not to keep good peeps out - it is to make sure that sinse we are so full already - we get in peeps that can most benifit our current player base. Sucks to feel the need to exclude folks so that we don't have too many at a raid. But PoP started the raid tool which affected progression hits and made non use of the raid tool obsolete. There are only about 25- 40% of the content TF does that can even get more than 72 peeps into the content to assist and with that nifty restriction the old way for a free loving guild to bring in everyone that wanted in really changed.

PoP really hosed a lot of guilds in fact a lot of guilds folded because of PoP and then again with the release of GoD. Fine tuning and love has allowed TF to persevere the release of PoP, GoD/Omens and the migration to Maelin Starpyre.
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Re: well

Postby Madokvaur » Fri May 12, 2006 7:29 pm

bill wrote:If we had trouble getting new members, I would most definitely be whistling a different toon.


Right on Drannor!!!

I guess i need to reactivate permanetly and kick all your asses. Tribal Fury rocks. TF is the best damn casual/family/raiding guild going. You need to keep your core guild progressing or people get bored and move on, OR they feel left out (lowbies) and move on. If you don't raise the cap you become a feeder guild for peeps grabbing gear and using you to gear up for other higher end guilds they really want to be in anyway. If you don't raise the cap as the guild progresses you get stuck in a rut because of the high turn over from what I just said. This is a GAME, people want to progress, and especially do it with their friends and family (family/casual/raidning guild = TF). If you do not progress you will become a pool of stagnent water, and we all know what happens when you become stagnet. Keeping the guild around the 120-130 members is perfect for a non-mandatory casual rading guild. If shit happens later and you ARE having trouble with not having enough members and applicants, you lower the requirements to balance it. But truly...I do not see that happening to a great guild like Tribal Fury. Tribal Fury is one of a kind and gets shit done the right way. :spock :spock :spock :spock

/rant off

back to getting :drunk:

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Brun

Postby Lyannah » Fri May 12, 2006 8:30 pm

I am in favour of using Brun as a stepping stone for lower lvl peeps to reach 68 or 70. I think part of the problem with low lvl peeps, including myself, is the lack of decent gear, AAs and flags.

I think brun could be used as a guild for not just those of lower lvls, but for those who are lacking in any high end experiences. If we allowed peeps to join at say 60 in brun, and do regular backflagging and do alot of POP hits etc, they will have enough reasonable gear, flgas and AAs for TF to then say welcome aboard.

I found (at least in my experience) that people will join a family guild that takes all lvls up until they hit their 60s, only to realise their guild does no progression at all. Raiding and progression are now more of a priority than levelling, and TF being the family oriented raiding guild is perfect. If these people then join brun, they will be in a guild with others in their 60s but more importantly with similar experience and equipment. They can group up and do creators or wos for xp, and can do some progression like POP or maybe don t1 etc. until they have some flags, some AAs, decent gear, and raid experience. This could mean that lvl 70 gimp applicants need to spend a few months in brun to get their gear, flags and AAs up to speed with what TF would need for the higher end raids.

A more stingent set of requirements could then be made for the official TF tag.

This is just a crazy idea from a crazy aussie :thumbup , but I personally think this might sort out alot of the issues you are trying to solve with the lvl cap increase.

Thats just an idea to toss around
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Postby Serano » Fri May 12, 2006 9:05 pm

no one is going to be running events for brun however. all you get there is guild hall and MOTD and I guess you can give me free stuff in the bank.
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Postby Britainicus » Fri May 12, 2006 11:32 pm

I would vote for keeping it as 65 as well. I may not have been in this guild for very long, but after playing every major MMORPG out there over the past 5 years, I have seen alot of different guilds and how they function. My main objection would be just that I dont really see a need to increase the minimum invite level. Sure, having everyone 70, decked out in Time Gear, and 400 or so AA's would be nice, but it does nothing if that player doesnt know how to play his/her toon and doesnt pay attention when raiding. Like I told Isenhart the other nite, half jokingly and half seriously, the guild should worry about its members knowing what they are doing and paying attention before it worries about levels.

Like Xanaii mentioned earlier, guilds were doing Time and other raids when they were 65. And regardless of whether they were hardcore or not, they did it without having the greatest gear at first. The reason they were able to do it wasnt because they were uber or different from anyone else, they were just determined and listened to/followed directions. Whether its something as simple as people not putting pets on raid mobs or just paying attention to where you are standing, the attention on most raids is less than stellar.

Uilea wrote:But none of you have really considered the family aspect of raising the level. Think of it this way, outside of MMs, how many 60s do you see grouping with 70s? How many 65s would you see grouping with 75s?


Maybe thats a problem that needs to be addressed then. Saying we arent being a good family to Rezjo because he is feeling rushed seems to be missing the point that we arent helping him level in the first place and getting to know him. Maybe this is something unique to EQ, but I have never been in a guild that didnt help its members level up. Again, this may be that Im new to the game and the guild, but why would it be so bad to help people level up? We invite people to come along on a 55 person raid, but what can you really tell about a person in that situation unless they have a defined role? Unless they wipe the raid, nothing they do is really noticed unless they are tanking or healing. To really judge how attentive someone is and how well they know their toon, seeing them perform in a group dynamic seems like a much better idea than seeing how well they can blend into a 50+ person raid. And maybe they dont have all the flags/keys they should have, or cant enter certain zones because of their level, but would it be that much of a problem for people to go to a lesser zone for a few hours to get a feel for that person?

Nothing I said is a flame/critique of any certain person, just my somewhat unique observation as a new player/guild member. Even if this is Everquest; loot, level, and AAs shouldnt be the only things considered in building a strong guild with strong players. Good guilds recruit good players. Great guilds develop great players.
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Postby Serano » Fri May 12, 2006 11:59 pm

nothing about TF raiding prevents peeps from grouping up and leveling with guildies or apps. or non guildies.
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Postby EQIsenhart » Sat May 13, 2006 12:04 am

Serano, your right. But a little known truth is...70's tend to NOT group with below 65's if you think that's not true your on crack....maybe if there good friends or just lucky. But GENERALLY speaking throughout EVERQUEST and even throughout TRIBAL FURY...there is certainly level racism going on (lol) is that because of greed? I dont really think so its more of a need basis to get things done, a 62 isn't going to be as effective GENERALLY speaking of course there are exceptions and Britainicus you have wonderful points, but the fact remains it's not greedy if a 70 won't group with a 62, nor is it being an asshole. It's I login want to get something done why would I choose a level 62 cleric over a 70 cleric? If I Wanted to focus my attention and foster this person SURE I am for that, and YES for the record I have grouped with many lowbies and tried to level them up. I don't feel like Saint Christopher because of it NOR do I think anyone is the devil because they don't its simple mechanics. In the real life military are you going to send a group of fresh recruits out of bootcamp into a strategical combat zone or are you going to send hardened soldiers who have been training years or had previous field experience? Think about it!
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Postby Serano » Sat May 13, 2006 12:52 am

Isen about 6 posts up.

Serano wrote:Ok - while I always vote against raising the cap -= here are the reasons I see that others want to.

1) Since the center of gravity of players levels has shifted to level 70 it will ultimatly mean that a majority of apps that join at 65 (or less) will find it difficult to find the right groups to play with since the majority of the guild is doing level 70 content.


EQIsenhart wrote: In the real life military are you going to send a group of fresh recruits out of bootcamp into a strategical combat zone or are you going to send hardened soldiers who have been training years or had previous field experience? Think about it!


in the real life military you are going to send a group of fresh recruits out of bootcamp into a "tactical" combat zone led by hardened soldiers who have been training years and have had previous field experiance. We send pilots into Strategic combat.
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Postby Lyannah » Sat May 13, 2006 1:00 am

Serano wrote:no one is going to be running events for brun


I wouldn't expect leaders or officers of TF to run any events for brun, they have their hands full as it is.

I would suggest the best people for the job are peeps with alts in brun with mains in TF who have had experience doing some progression with mains, so they have a good idea of how things work. It will also give peeps experience being a raid leader, which can never be a bad thing IMO.

Hell I'd even do some if I had the first clue as to what I was doing

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Postby Mechell » Sat May 13, 2006 2:23 am

As much as I don't want to raise the cap, I'm lvl 70 decent mana and hitpoints, i've lvled my druid from baby up without mms (minus the ones i used for aas) and w/o being PLed and I still have to look outside guild to find a group cause players prefer to play with people they "trust" or whatever. I don't expect raising the cap is really going to offer much more oppurtunities either. You can argue lvl over skill over experience till your blue in the face. It doesn't take much of grouping with a player in a hot zone to see how they respond and see what they can do. Whether it be lvl 65 or lvl 70. Alot of players have been PLed up to a certain lvl and doesn't have the skills nor the equipment nor the knowledge of character. Either way I thought that was why people made magleo (sp?) accounts. So we can see if they have the gear and aas to go with thier lvl /shrug. Raise the lvl? Sure I don't care. It's not going to change the fact certain players are going to group with those they like or trust... They'll just add someone to the trusted group and it'll be round robins all over again. But this is just coming from someone that prefers to group with guild as oppose to pickups and seldom gets the oppurtunity./shrug my 2pps there :spank

btw so much there i wanted to respond too but i'll keep my butt in place :) and mouth
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Postby Xanaii » Sat May 13, 2006 4:55 am

So many posts. Read 'em all and man it's hard to remember what everyones contradictions and points are lol.

But it's late for me right now and I just want to emphasize again the fact that it seriously doesn't matter in many reason whether the cap is raised or not. There are pros and cons to everything, everyone will have one point to there opinion and another will have a contradiction to it.

I see this however turning into something to where animosity is building in people, and grudges are already being set, this isn't a fight. It's a poll. Just vote if you want to, give your opinion here obviously, but let's all try not to hate one another for someone going against one others pros and cons about something.

I've read 'em all and I've seen very few if ANY invalid points to anything being said about this poll lol.

And I know I am going to get someone showing me how it does matter in this and that way but I am going to say it anyways...It..Does...Not...Matter :) . And I mean that in a dramatizing sense.

How it does matter is it lowers apps coming in. ( aren't you all happy with what we have now? Glad I got in personally /shrug ). And all it takes is commitment and persistance to get to 70, I have mass respect for any 70 warrior out there who's played from begining to now, and hell any other class to. Sooo..Come on think logically here guys.

Does it hurt us to stay at current cap? imo, in a way, just from so many apps coming in, that's about it though.

Does it hurt us to raise cap? imo not at all other then it hurts some peoples feelings of the family aspect of this guild and they might then be looking more closely at that /guildremove button :? . Which is understandable, especialy to those of you who've been here for so long and are and have been happy with how it is and how it's been in the past. But logically thinking, moving cap to 70 won't hurt that, think hard on that, cause I have. I welcome any negative feedback on that statement to prove me wrong :? ( not in a challenging way, but honestly. This isn't a fight as I said earlier )

Does it help us to keep the current cap? (??) Other then the hurt feelings over the family thing, I don't think it does I spose, in a logical way of thinking. Cause again, persistance get's you the lvls, nothing more really, morons with persistance get lvls, smart ones with persistance get lvls faster, ignorant people get lvls with persistance. Get my drift? :razz

Does it help us to raise the cap? Come on now. This ensures us at least some sort of spell power on raids and in groups and mitigation/dps on raids and in groups. AA's are a big thing but I do have to plain out admit that 1 lvl = about 20 specific type of AA's depending on your class, sometimes more imo. I noticed how much more dmg I mitigated once I hit 70 compared to 65 ( having full defensive at 65, omens included ) Was a big change....So yes it helps us.

All in all those are the only things we should be thinking on, no?

Growing is growing. As a child you're dependant on your family, guardian(s) to help you grow. Once you've learned enough to learn without their need you go on. Do any of us over 25 still live with our parents by choice? ( no slight to those that do. Milk it! =P ). Are you hurt by the fact that you don't? If they treated you good and you had good relations with them throughout your life, do you not keep in contact with them now? Do you dislike them? Or the same for them towards you? My point is. Don't see growing/change as such a horrible bad thing to where it's going to make you upset over nothing at all.

This is my last post unless someone specifically says in a post they want me to respond, but I'll keep looking in to check out the posts and poll :)
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Postby Lyannah » Sat May 13, 2006 5:49 am

/group hugs TF

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