Raising the Bar (Level Limit Increase for Future Members)

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What should be the new level limit?

Poll ended at Thu May 18, 2006 3:44 pm

Level 68
14
33%
Level 70
29
67%
 
Total votes : 43

Postby Baromen » Fri May 12, 2006 12:01 pm

I understand why making brun a feeder type guild isn't going to work, but if you have someone who's got friends in the guild and wants to be a raider with us and really is working hard to lvl up and gear out but isn't there yet, why not throw them in brun for a while until they are ready? Why can't we bring people from brun on raids? I really don't think we need a ton of 65s, but if there are circumstances (I'm thinking of Rezjo who's got a bunch of friends in the guild and really is working his ass off to be worthy of joining and REALLY wants to be a part of THIS guild, not just a guild doing what we do, but just isn't there yet) where we want to bring someone in but they just don't have it yet, we could make Brun an option for them.

Set a goal. "ok, you're 65/20 (lvl/aa) and we'd like you to be 70/100. By the end of the month we'd like to see you at 70"

That sort of thing so that even if they aren't raiding with us all the time they are there for when we need an extra body and have access to all of us.

Believe me, it's very important for me to get rezjo in. He's been a wonderful friend and a great guy to hang out with. He's been there for me when I've needed him no matter what's going on and that was from before Bardomen was even tagged TF and he didn't know much about the guild. He did all his own research, talked to people, signed up on the boards, read all he could read, talked to more people, and now he really wants to join. He's not ready to join. At 65 he might be closer, but he's no Shobie/Camouse/Zyzyzyzyzyzyzy/etc. I guarantee he will be, and to let him go because of his weak gear now would be a crime, but to let him come to mastery of hate instead of Shobie would be crazy.

I think the solution to this gap in who we are and what we're doing could be filled by the app guild and this can't be the first time someone's thought about it... but is that the only solution?

Many guilds flag people "apps" even when they have the guild tag. Could we get people IN TF but flag them as ALTERNATE RAIDER or something so they know that they are behind but once they catch up they are full raider?

It's hard to make these decisions because they dont really affect US. They affect the people who are way behind and I don't know how I'd handle it.
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Postby Baromen » Fri May 12, 2006 12:04 pm

also, if someone knows coming in that they are in the back of the pack and if they join they are going to have to work on a lot of things before they won't be bumped for another healer/tank/dps but that they are welcome on every raid we do as long as there is room just like everyone else

AND THEY UNDERSTAND THIS AND ARE STILL INTERESTED

why not?

Would you rather:

Have a gimpy monk or an empty raid slot?

Have a long time member and well geared monk or a gimpy monk?

I don't think we need to put a tier system on members, but as we go forward it might be convenient to explain to new, weaker geared members, that if a raid is full and we need another stronger member who's also LFG at the raid they have to sit out sometimes.

just think /tfraidin
Last edited by Baromen on Fri May 12, 2006 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ok

Postby bill » Fri May 12, 2006 12:05 pm

I am tracking 2 votes for 65. Lemme know if I missed anyone other than Blues and Reck.
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Postby Ayragon » Fri May 12, 2006 12:15 pm

zyzzerzazz wrote:
No way Jose. Did you guys take your insane pills today?

The app guild is not a home for undergeared/leveled toons to sit in and wallow. Its only purpose is and will be to help us manage our apps on a temp basis.

Apps either get a yes or no within a few weeks if they raid with us a few times. If RL hits them while they are in Brun, thats ok - they will not be deguilded. Now if an app just sits in Brun and xp's or quests while TF is raiding where they could ahve gone - then their heads are not in the right place. Thus yo will be asked to leave. Agian - its not a home for stragglers who dont fit in anywhere.



I think Brun's should be a feeder guild for TF? Why build it if its only to house people for a few weeks? Let them stay there forever if they choose, who's it hurting as long as they're not causing shit, and they're happy.....who's to say a guy won't level a toon up to 70+, with 1000'aa and be happy in Brun, one day they may want to switch to a TF after blowing the doors off of DoDh, and PoR tasks.....you can gear up large that way.....

Who cares if its a home for stragglers who never play, or never wants to play the game to its full potential. You never know who they're friends with, or what mains they're friends with.

Nobody is going to stay in Brun and evole their characters, if there is nobody else in there......Why lose potential?
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Postby Xanaii » Fri May 12, 2006 12:29 pm

Reck wrote:Okay my 2cp

Since DoD came out and the endless MMs, there is a very large supply of stupid 70s. You all know them, you have grouped with them atleast once. The lvl doesn't make the toon, the skill of the player does.



Exactly right, as with the several comments about being up to date with AA's along with the levels.

The thing is is that it doesn't matter if the lvl cap is raised or not, the same needs are going to always be needed, no matter the lvl. When our own content changes and the games content changes and the game lvl caps to 75, then it will matter.

The lvl won't make the player and won't make the guild anymore significant unless the player is good.

And I don't think this poll is being taken because Drannor or other officers are asking if we should make more certain we have more credible players. But trying to lessen the weight of the apps coming in, I've noticed there are a lot, and most are lvl 65. It's tough to keep up with. I see a point in making the cap 70 to help that. I could be wrong on this though /shrug.

Zyzzerzazz has a point too, with the 68 being the cap for the spells you can obtain on your own, which are very important spells. the difference between 5 lvls in a group and in a raid is considerable. It's the AA's, spells and the knowledge that make the gap even larger, if you can understand what I'm trying to say. So, having the cap raised to 68 has a two pros that i can see. Lessens a bit of the apps and gets us people we know ( or I would hope ) have their 66-68 spells, provided you're a caster, if you're pure melee you're sorta floating out there in space anyways =P. AND...Annnnnd, it's faaar easier to get from 65-68 then it is to get from 68-70 imho lol. Just takes a couple or few more weeks, or less to get to 68 after you hit 65. People can stop at 68 and start on their AA's and still be half-way efficient with their lvl, and mostly efficient with their spells.

Think my minds made up now. :thumbup
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Postby Ranjaling » Fri May 12, 2006 12:35 pm

BTW Baromen, All apps who apply before any policy change are subject to the policy that was in place when they app'd. Rezjo would not need to get to 68 or 70.

Thats the reason for the app guild. Anyone can app regardless of level and so long as they maintain interest then their app stays active. A level 60 could app here and join <brun> NP.

This gives the apps another avenue outside of just TFchat to group and have GH benefits while they wait for their tag calls or meet requirements.

Yes, there are plenty of better skilled players not yet 70 whom I'd sooner play with than a lvl 70 noob or ebay'd toon but it works both ways.

We are trying to cut down on the influx of apps coming in as our seats begin to see new limits because of the content 54 man caps. Lifting the level just filters things a little bit BUT the app guild prevents everyone else in the game from being locked out.

I don't agree with ever setting a standard of X-HP/Mana and X-Gear as those two things require the app to most likely have raided certain levels of content for gear to reach those goals. Making the level 68 or 70 does not.

IMO levels, with their base added stats and new discs are priority over AA's for most classes. AA's flow like beer at a frat party once your there.

Yes, I understand every class has some AA's that are crucial to get asap as I grabbed AM3 & EQ back in the day but then brunned exp to 70.

Someday we may require a set number of aa's, but atm I dont see the need for both. I do, however see the need for the level raise because of..

A) Our roster will eventually reach capacity and force raiders to miss progression raids if we continue to tag every "cool" person that comes our way.
B) We have an app guild for apps of all ages to grow and establish themselves while still being essentially "PART" of TF.
C) With the new expansion raising the cap to 75, I think the range of members should stay on average of no more than 7 levels apart.
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Postby Ranjaling » Fri May 12, 2006 12:39 pm

Xanaii wrote:And I don't think this poll is being taken because Drannor or other officers are asking if we should make more certain we have more credible players. But trying to lessen the weight of the apps coming in, I've noticed there are a lot, and most are lvl 65. It's tough to keep up with. I see a point in making the cap 70 to help that. I could be wrong on this though /shrug.


BINGO!
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Postby Baromen » Fri May 12, 2006 12:41 pm

AAs and gear come at 70.

When I was in my teens I used to seek out warriors from raiding guilds to ask advice on gear, skills, zones, etc. I thought they were all so amazing and I wished I was one of them.

what did they ALL SAY WITHOUT EXCEPTION?

AAs and gear come at 70 (or 60 or 65 or whatever the top lvl was at the time)

there are a ton of stupid 70s running around, but play a 65 toon and see how many stupid 65s there are... a staggering percentage of low 60s are profoundly retarded (I had a 65 wizard not evac when we had 7 mobs in camp because he didn't want to go OOM... :puke )

I've never taken anyone seriously who talks about MM players or stupid 70s. It's complaining for the sake of complaining. Yes, it was harder before. No, that doesn't make you a better player.

Friend of mine is leading his guild through PoP atm. He went from 50 to 70 in MMs and started playing in august. He's full qvic geared from an old guildie and he's kicking serious ass. Is he a stupid 70? He sure out tanks the shit out of most of our tanks.

Even if you are a "hollow" toon and you have shit to show for being 70 but the lvl. You can still cast all your spells once you get them. Ask reckaged if he'd like another shaman buffing at the raids. Ask Zyzz if he likes being one of 2 clerics casting the 70 symbol?

For casters, 70 is everything. For Tanks, 70 is the start of the arms race.

I'd rather be sitting in stoneroot camping runes for a 70 chanter then a 65 chanter who won't use them for a month.

Oh, and if any of you non 70 casters passes on a rune in my group again because "you're not able to use it yet" I'm going to cry. Load up, it makes my life easier.
Last edited by Baromen on Fri May 12, 2006 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ranjaling » Fri May 12, 2006 12:54 pm

Ayragon wrote:Why build it if its only to house people for a few weeks? Let them stay there forever if they choose, who's it hurting as long as they're not causing shit, and they're happy.....

Who cares if its a home for stragglers who never play, or never wants to play the game to its full potential.


Because the app guild is a show of interest to wanting to JOIN TF, not wanting to join <Brun>.

We don't have the time to police 2 guilds 24/7. Brun will be harder to run if it reaches 50 people in there and conflicts start to arise. IMO, no app needs to be in BRUN more than 90 days.
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Postby bill » Fri May 12, 2006 1:26 pm

Can we take the love affair elsewhere?

Baro, this isn't how to handle this sort of thing.

Keep the commentary about each other for another thread, this is about guild policy and moving forward.

This is how a debate turns into a flamefest, when ppl step on each other's e-penises. I would worry less about your level 65 friend in Qvic gear that started playing less than a year ago, it isn't relevant to me at all.

I've been playing almost 6 years and no Qvic gear, I guess that means I suck. /shrug

So, how about that level limit?
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Postby Teennin » Fri May 12, 2006 1:28 pm

AS i voted before. I think a lvl cap of 65 is just fine. While those folks who are 65 may not have the UBER spells that a 68 would have. Being lvl 65 is what peopel use to aim for. We can still get really good lvl 65 people Look at time all that gear is lvl 65. A lvl 65 could hit 68 in about a month of being IN the guild.
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Postby Ayragon » Fri May 12, 2006 1:28 pm

ah, the good threads are gone.....ahahaha, made my last 20 mins at work all worth it..
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Postby Baromen » Fri May 12, 2006 1:28 pm

forget about the gear. Would it make a difference if he was leading raids naked? He's been playing since august and leveled up in MMs. Now he leads raids... That's all I'm saying.

Oh, and bill, if a certain officer is feeling saucy he'll look and see that I'm still on the boards, prod me to flame him, rinse, repeat for a while, delete it, and then pretend it never happened.
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Postby Zyzzerzazz » Fri May 12, 2006 1:35 pm

Baro is just expressing himself - no harm there.

But you must admit you are gunning for the fasted to 1000 posts ever award Baro. Slow down

Problem is you dont let others chime into the conversation before you guys steamroll over it and move onto the next debate.

Sometimes not posting and hearing others say what you were saying is a twice as effective method then just spamming your point over and over again.

But personal attacks like Reck to Baro and Teen to Baro and Baro to Teen are not acceptable - so consider yourselfs warned.

We do NOT attack personalities here - we attack logic.
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Postby EQIsenhart » Fri May 12, 2006 1:41 pm

exactly Zyzz, thank you.
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