Raising the Bar (Level Limit Increase for Future Members)

[Xanaii]

If the rumors of the lvl cap being raised to 75 are true, then I whole heartedly agree with you. Content that will come out with that sort of lvl cap is going to be...Mind boggling, lvl 65 just won't cut it anymore. But for now I think it will.

[Uilea]

TF will always be a home for the people who have nowhere else to go. Raising the app level to 70 is not a big of a deal as it seems. We request that people put effort into their applications. Asking people to put some effort into their character is the same thing.

One of the things that attracts people to TF is that, although we are a family guild, we are raid caipable. The benifits this would bring to raids are obvious.

But none of you have really considered the family aspect of raising the level. Think of it this way, outside of MMs, how many 60s do you see grouping with 70s? How many 65s would you see grouping with 75s?

Xanaii, you mentioned Rezjo. He's a great example of what I mean. Only a few days ago he was in TFchat talking about how he couldn't find groups. He is under 65 and not fire flagged, he can't get into the good xp zones where most of us group. The only way I grouped with him was to go back into PoP and play in BoT with him some. If he was 70 at the time he applied he would be much less frustrated right now. He wouldn't feel rushed to level up to be able to group and raid with us. He could actualy zone into MPG/RSS and pick up on the TF groups that have been running there near constantly lately. All he seems to be doing is panicing and rushing, because of his low level. Are we being a good family to him by letting him go through that?

I remember when people freaked out over instating an app policy saying it was a move away from TF past and a move towards hardcore. Every guild changes and adapts as the game changes. Raising the level to 70 is not a step towards becoming a raiding guild at all. It's protecting our family, and bringing in apps who won't struggle with the content we raid and group in. A step towards hardcore would have been docking DKP and threatening deguilding to the people who agroed Master of Hate tonight.

[arielyn]

it is starting to scare me how often me and uilea are agreeing.

really, people who are under lvl 70 are going to start feeling left behind and will deguild.


its not about the *raiding* aspect. its about the average level of the guild. as we grow into bigger and better content, people will fall behind.

as a guild, we are the LARGEST guild as far as numbers go. Putting one more limitation on our app process is NOT a big deal. We have always made exceptions in the past for friends and family, requiring our new members to be lvl 70 doesn't change that.

however, what it will change, is some lvl 65 people who are just looking for instant plane of time flaggage apping to us. lets face it, i don't care how cool someone is, if they can't hit the content / group where we're grouping, they will feel left out and leave.

remember folks, everything after plane of time is limited numbers. would you rather have some random level 65 take the spot of one of our current members? or would you rather have a lvl 70 who knows the encounter that can help us progress? Would you rather group in RSS with a new member, or hang out in BoT?

i said it before, a long time ago...... how bout we focus on the members and guild we have now, instead of trying to guild everyone. a unflagged lvl 65 doesn't help my family........ a flagged lvl 70 might.

[Bluesflameangel]

Being level 70 doesnt mean a whole lot except you can go to RSS and you can go to MPG.
I persoanllly do not like those zones in the first place, they are over crowded and they seem to bring out the worst in most people, fighting over mobs and such.
I would much rather go to BOT and play. I have actually met quite a few of the apps there and some are guilded now.

70 means nothing to our Guilds raids unless they have the armor and AAs to back it up. I can go PL a toon to 70 and have crap gear and zero AAs.
70 doesnt make you better.
You can be 65 have so so gear, know your toon inside and out, be able to play it in your sleep, but we are thinking of leaving that person out because they arent 70?? Come on people this makes no sense at all!!!

I apologize if all this comes off as being bitchy or over opinionated but this honest to goodness makes no freaking sense to me.

I say if we raise it to 70, lets be much more strict with who we let in. Make sure they really know their toon. Make sure if a mob breaths on them they wont die instantly. Make sure they have uber AA's. Then you could say they would benefit us better But simply them being a higher level doesnt mean shit.

[Lyannah]

I have to agree with Blues.

I know I'm only lvl 66 at this point in time but I've had AA xp set at 100% for a long time now because I don't want to be the owner of a gimp 70. I think if you want to start introducing new caps to applicants, maybe we should take AAs more into consideration than level - because I have seen many awful lvl 70 people that just don't have the abilities they should have at their level. If I wanted I could go hard on the xp grind to hit lvl 70 I could, but I don't think being lvl 70 makes me a better player unless I have a suitable amount of AAs to back me up; and at this point in time there are not many zones I can't access now at lvl 66.

I think if there is an increased lvl cap with the next expansion then a new lvl req for apps should be considered, but I don't think its terribly necessary at this time.

Of course, this is all IMHO

Go banana go

[Lyannah]

btw none of those awful people I mentioned are members of TF (at least not that I've noticed)

Banana

[Jaella]

I have to put in my 2cp too

I haven't voted because I can't really choose between the two. I will, however, tell you a story:

When I was 65-68 I had the hardest time ever finding pickup groups. I was in a very small guild so much of the time it would be /LFG for me. One day (at 68) i got a MPG 6way group offer (AFTER they made sure I had my level 68 mezz). They had one slot open and was having a hard time finding a dps class to fill up the group.

My friend, a level 68 mage with 300+ AA's and all his spells, was online and I asked the group if they wanted him in. I was told that they ONLY wanted level 70's and that I ONLY got in the group because they needed a slower badly.

Last spot was then filled by a level 70 (don't remember class) with NONE of his level 69-70 spells and only a very few of his 66-68 spells (and I think he had about 20 AA's).

I guess what I am trying to say is that sometimes people focus too much on the level and not on the toon. We would have been MUCH better off with the mage in that MPG group because he had made sure that his spells and AA's followed along with the levelling.

I was lucky at levels 66-68 because I had a few good friends who I met up with and we could go to places like RCoD and farm runes for spells. I promised myself that I wouldn't go to 69/70 until I had my spells and the AA's to go with it.

Countless people have asked me at 66-68 why the heck I wasn't level 70 yet and my answer was always that I wanted my AA's to match my level and that I would NOT level up to 69/70 until I had almost all my (OOW) spells for those levels.

If I hadn't stuck to that decision I would have died a WHOLE lot more on the way - my AA's have saved my butt so many times during the way (and my spells have made life a lot easier). Also I have learned so much about what I can do as a chanter along the way. I learn something new everyday actually

I don't know if all this makes any sense and maybe it got a bit out of subject, but I got carried away hehe, but I guess I tend to lean towards the suggestion that AA requirements might be more important than level requirement - but then again, with the level 75 cap coming (and it IS coming) then maybe level 70/some required AA's would be a good idea.

I'm still just so happy you all let me into The Tribe *sniff*

*HUGS*

[Baromen]

actually baromen, I'd rather have everyone 65's and no asshats or people who don't listen or people who can play their class well.

re-read my post. "If asshatery is a constant" means if you think that everyone will be an asshat all the time then I'd rather have asshats that are better geared then asshats with all resists at 75

[Baromen]

Well, if you want to use rezjo as an example... here's a good one:

He's around 5k mana

Hansodest is around 6k mana

Rezjo is 64, Hanso is 70

Rezjo is playing a cleric exclusively, hanso is oftentimes boxed

Who would I rather have healing me in a DoD mission? Hanso, of course.

Even though he goes OOM frequently if things get messed up, he's got all the heals that matter and can use them to work around his mana. A 1500 a tick HoT is much better for getting started with CHeals than a 600 a tick HoT.

The point being, when you reach 70 you can start working on those spells. I don't know a lot about classes I don't play, that's why I use cleric as an example(I played one for a long time). Obviously, a 70 cleric without his pius line is just a 65 cleric with more mana, but for someone who's raiding with us and grouping with us and gearing up with us there are plenty of opportunities to get runes and get all your spells.

Think about tanks. Our mitigation goes up with level, not just AAs. At 65, even if I had the same hp/ac I have now I wouldn't be called on to tank anything because there is that level gap, BUT I WOULD STILL BE AT THE RAIDS. In a 54 person raid, you want everyone there to play an inportant role, and NOT UPPING THE LEVEL MEANS THAT WE WILL TELL THEM 'WELCOME TO THE TRIBE NOW SIT BACK THERE AND DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING'

Moving it to 70 means that we can include everyone. I don't care about the MM argument or the no AA argument. Gear and AAs come at 70. Being 70 gives you the availability of all the tools. If I was 65 and trying to get in on matery of hate while a handful of 70 warriors wanted to go, but I was there first, who wants to tell me I can't go? What about when we stop farming one and start doing them all to get our pie pieces? Now I'm a 65 warrior with 1 piece trying to get raids for the other ones and we're getting ready for anguish. /join tfraidin. There is only so long you can handle being a raidin and not doing anything and not feeling welcome before you look elsewhere

[Zyzzerzazz]

I voted 68 - and the 54 person raid limitation is the reason as well as the FACT you can buy all your VERY important lv 66-67-68 spells. Period.

Imagine 3 of the 5 clerics in your Uqua raid being lv 65 /boggle

Welcome to hell.

Or 3 of your 5 Warriors lv 65....


Not good. Guilds did complete Uqua and Tacvi back in the day at lv 65 because they had the same ppl raiding the same content 3-4-5 nights a week, full geared out with full Time/GoD gear - over and over and over again.

They could get in 12 uqua attempts in the time it takes us to do 4 uqua attempts within a month. Those are the differances.

So many benifits at lv 70:

Full DoN gear access - big plus for apps from non-raiding guilds.
Access to RSS where lv 69-70 Runes drop like candy
Better mitigation - mana - AC - stats - ect
Less mob resisting your spells
Spells as casters is prob the BIGGEST differance.

Like Baro said - ESP as a cleric - lv 65 with 400 AA and all spells will get blown away by a lv 70 cleric w/ 150AA and all spells in terms of healing.

Huge healing differance....

and I can only imagin the differance with other pure casting classes.

Melee MIGHT not see as much as a differance from 65-70, but casters /nod

Again - if someone posts an application and sayd they dont want to raid, they know they are lv 65 but want to just join to have a home and grp and quest and hang out. I am on with tagging them.

But its not OK to have a 4k unbuffed pally app to TF with Pally raiding seats open, and get tagged and expect to come to an uqua raid and get killed EVERY fight - and add zero value to the raid.

I guess from a RL perspective, I want all lv 70 with at least 200AA - but logically lv 68 is perfect.

[bill]

So much to respond to!!! You guys are awesome, love to see the thinking caps are on!

Now for my thoughts:

Must have 8k mana pool and 10k unbuffed??

We generally don't accept ppl that can't live through the AE's on the raids we hold. Scary as this may seem, the precedent is already there.

As we move on to "new" content, the guild will need to adapt. In every aspect. I said this elsewhere and I'll say it here. It's real hard to be nice.

It is much easier to Decess ppl that train the Master of Hate than to suck it up, and dust ourselves off and try again. Are you pickin up what I'm throwin down?

Rezjo, best example and I will tell you, the impetus of this poll. I feel bad for the guy, but I wouldn't go app to sequel as a level 62 cleric. Would you?

I see one write-in for 65 so far. Keep the voting going folks GOGOGO!

[Ayragon]

why not make it 70 with decent AA's/gear....maybe Elemental level or above.....Throw everybody else in <Brun> till they're ready. Mostly people just want a guild thats active, don't see why <Brun> couldn't raid, and be one of the most popular family guilds on Maelin. When they're ready, they get the bump to TF....

easy peasy, Japanesy...

[Eubedyen]

why not make it 70 with decent AA's/gear....maybe Elemental level or above.....Throw everybody else in <Brun> till they're ready. Mostly people just want a guild thats active, don't see why <Brun> couldn't raid, and be one of the most popular family guilds on Maelin. When they're ready, they get the bump to TF....

easy peasy, Japanesy...

Took the words out of my mouth

But it would mean having someone being the RL there and no thier stuff....OR have an TF alt (high enough) lead the raids (if they are up to it) on the "Off" raid days from TF

[Zyzzerzazz]

Mostly people just want a guild thats active, don't see why <Brun> couldn't raid, and be one of the most popular family guilds on Maelin

No way Jose. Did you guys take your insane pills today?

The app guild is not a home for undergeared/leveled toons to sit in and wallow. Its only purpose is and will be to help us manage our apps on a temp basis.

Apps either get a yes or no within a few weeks if they raid with us a few times. If RL hits them while they are in Brun, thats ok - they will not be deguilded. Now if an app just sits in Brun and xp's or quests while TF is raiding where they could ahve gone - then their heads are not in the right place. Thus yo will be asked to leave. Agian - its not a home for stragglers who dont fit in anywhere.

[Reck]

Okay my 2cp

Since DoD came out and the endless MMs, there is a very large supply of stupid 70s. You all know them, you have grouped with them atleast once. The lvl doesn't make the toon, the skill of the player does.

Shadowboxer kick ass monk, was 68 for the longest time, but you know what even at 68 he can play better then 99% of the lvl 70s.

So I am against the lvl cap.