Should TF Cap DKP Bids by Alts?

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Do bidding caps apply to alts?

Poll ended at Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:46 pm

No, alts are not capped on bidding
13
33%
Yes, alts are capped like boxes without exception
5
13%
Yes, alts are capped unless the RL requests the presence of one toon over another.
22
55%
 
Total votes : 40

hmm

Postby bill » Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:42 pm

Interesting point AJ. The debate here isn't that they haven't earned the loot. The question is, if Listen and Teennin are bidding for the same loot, who deserves it more for the better of the guild?

If it were the idea of Listen earning the loot or not, she wouldn't accumulate DKP. Please dont' confuse the philosophies of Alts aren't allowed to bid and Alts are not allowed to outbid mains.

Another way to handle this would be like Drig suggested by stating no alts can bid against a main. This would handle the loophole of the first alt to bid 50 wins among alts. However, that being said, an alt can bid 50 but if a main bids 1 that alt can't have it. Doesn't seem to make much sense to say a toon with 1-hour raided is worth more to the guild than an alt with 50+ hours of raiding. Especially if that person with 1 is new to the guild.

Keep the thoughts comin folks!
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Postby Drigarx » Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:20 pm

Another solution may be to tie DKP to the main for all alts. This would theoretically eliminate any confusion as to weather a main or alt gets the gear. For discussion purposes lets take 2 chars A and B. A is a main with no alts and B is a main with 3 alts. If dkp were tied to the mains, then B would have to split his DKP amongst 4 chars basically putting the upgrades in his hands as to what toon is more important to him/guild.

Just a thought
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Postby Toisrus » Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:22 pm

My first comment is that I think we should vote AFTER everyone has posted their comments on this topic. Some people may change their minds based on what is said in the comments, but if they have already voted it will be too late.

I see two different issues being discussed here. The first issue is, "What is the problem being addressed?" The second issue is, "What does it mean to be an alt?"

What is the problem

With regard to the first issue, I would like some clarification from the guild officers. I see a lot of theoretical problems presented, i.e., what a clever person could do to circumvent the "boxed alt dkp rule" or how a person will end up with a number of mediocre toons by spreading around the dkp. But I do not see an actual problem that has presented itself. Maybe I missed it in the prior discussion or maybe I missed a raid where this happened. But I would like to know if the guild or its members have actually been prejudiced by the current policies regarding alts and dkp.

From my experience, I do not see a problem arising. On the contrary, I have seen everyone being considerate of giving mains the opportunity to win important drops. Even if there was a time or two where an alt got an item that a main wanted, I don't see that as a problem requiring fixing. But, I do not have the perspective that the guild officers have.

Therefore, I would appreciate it if one of the guild officers can lay out what the problem is that has actually arisen, as opposed to the possible ways a problem could arise. If no problem has actually arisen yet, I say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

What is an Alt?

A fundamental difficulty in this discussion is the different ideas about what an alt is. Ranjaling seems to equate alts with boxes. That is not true for me. I do not box and have only one account. When I attend an event, I only bring one toon. I feel it is unfair to have my characters equated with boxes. A policy has been set for box'd toons. This discussion should separately look at toons when they are not box'd.

Others seem to think that an alt is a necessarily weak character or that a player can only have one strong toon. That is the way some people choose to play EQ, but not me. I have two toons that are relatively equal in strength: Toisrus and Leebe. I have probably played them similar amount of time. They both have over 150 aa. I often ask the raid leader whether the raid needs a ranja or chanty, and bring the toon which is needed. It is important to me to continue to gear both of them to fight in the higher end zones so they can contribute to guild raids and groups.

The fundamental prejudice here is the concept that a person can only have one main. I would like to be able to declare two mains. A few of us have two characters that can stand on their own as mains and who are played often enough to be considered mains. I would resent it if I had to choose to make one of my mains a "second class" citizen of Tribal Fury. The fact is that both Toisrus and Leebe contribute to the guild in important ways which I believe should be respected. The same can be said of others, like Drannor/Waystin.

I understand that a 50 dkp bidding limit will rarely place a bidding limitation on whichever character I declare to be an alt. If the event is so rare, why even have such a policy? Nevertheless, it will really suck to be barred from an item I really want because of this rule. But, more importantly, I think this rule would make me resentful by disrespecting the contributions of one of my mains.

I think the solution would be develop a flexible definition of a "main" and an "alt" that takes into account the play styles of the different people and the needs of the guild.
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Postby phishn00 » Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:54 pm

From my experience, I do not see a problem arising. On the contrary, I have seen everyone being considerate of giving mains the opportunity to win important drops


This hadn't been a problem, but recently there have been several people who feel it's more important to gear up their alts / boxes / second-third-fourth mains or whatever you want to call them, than help out their guild by allowing mains receive the loot that they have earned, hence the need. This topic in particular is not something we want to deal with, but at this point it's become necessary.

The idea of capping alt bids at 50 dkp is the idea that mains receive our high end loot first, and everyone else after. To me, this makes perfect sense, I'm surprised that anyone would be in favor of gearing up alts before mains, that idea is completely counterproductive. It hurts the guild, it makes members resent each other, and serves no real purpose.


The other solution to this is give the RL the power to tell people which toon to bring. Of course this is my favorite. We have always allowed people to bring whatever toon they want, but to be honest, 90% of "non-mains" are fairly worthless to me as a RL. Alts / boxes or whatever are usually undergeared, under aa'd, peeps aren't used to playing them in a raid situation, etc, etc..... This would solve the problem completely.

When peeps bring these alts to the raid, the vast majority of the time, they aren't actually "earning" dkp, because the benefit by having them in the raid is negligible. If you don't believe me that there's a difference, just look at backflagging week. If we had all mains there, we would have plowed through every hit in no time, instead of the fiascos that occurred during many of those raids.

Many raiding guilds do not allow alts, or don't allow them to raid. We're not setting those standards, only requesting that alts are not getting the best drops available to us.
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Postby Serano » Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:54 pm

TF has recruited a lot of peeps that wanted to be in a guild that didn't care about which char was a main.
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Postby Meso » Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:15 pm

Tois said everything just right i think. And I agree that discussion before vote is far better.
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ok

Postby bill » Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:16 pm

Before I read the rest of that post:

Some people may change their minds based on what is said in the comments, but if they have already voted it will be too late.


I have reposted a poll before due to feedback indicating this concept.

Generally I always read then vote, but not everyone is me, fortunately.

OK, to the heart of the post:

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."


I agree wholeheartedly. However, if you see that you need oil in 500miles, you don't wait until the oil gasket goes and you grind enough metal to notice you need new/more oil. Sometimes when you've been driving a certain amount of time, you can tell when something needs to be addressed. This is one of those times. We decided not to wait until a problem happened, rather we chose to be pro-active about the situation as we became aware and deal with it before it can deal with us.

This is a case of maintenance. We are moving, like a ball rolling. However, consider having to do twice as many hits (which we are doing) to gear your force (us) up to par to move (keep rolling) and attain a constant speed if you will.

The opinion here is that we could be moving faster. Why aren't we moving faster? We don't raid more than we do because we raid as much as we can. OK, can we raid longer per day? No, we pretty much stretch it to the limit. OK, can we cut down on the amount of toons getting geared up per player to focus our assets? Yes!

This is merely a proposal to focus our loot. If the majority of the guild is of the mind that our pace is fine and they don't mind raiding poFire mini's 3 times instead of once, that's cool with me. I don't mind, I'm in no big hurry to get somewhere other than wherever TF is going.

Again as mentioned twice in this thread, this is purely an idea that came from the discussion to cap boxes bidding ability. That was generally viewed in a beneficial light.

I do not box and have only one account.


I am in the same boat! However, we have to recognize that not everyone is like you or I. There are people boxing 1-5 toons sometimes. That is going to require a wider perspective than just my own!

I have two toons that are relatively equal in strength: Toisrus and Leebe.


Relativity is a funny thing. Leebe can't mez for shit. That's relative. Our point is that we want you to have one strong toon, not 2-10.

The debate here is that the majority of the guild does not wish to gear up your 5 equally strong toons because that will take a lot of extra time.

The debate also exists that I would rather have you as a strong chanter or ranger and let someone else play the role you are not. Also, we are not saying that you can't bring that weaker toon if you want.

Furthermore, we aren't saying you can't bid on loot against mains! But we are drawing a line at a point which alts (or part-time toons to be more descriptive) cannot take priority over someone that is full-time about their character. Part-time and full-time are only relative to the time an individual can put forth.

Baromen plays ONLY his warrior. I play my warrior and my mage. It is easy to see that Baromen's warrior will advance more quickly than either of my toons if we have the same play time.

Treat our raiding time as 1 person's play-time.

The debate is, does TF want to gear up 650 toons (guild total toons tagged) or 120 toons (the amount of raiding mains tracked by the DKP site)?

In theory, that's a lot of extra raiding/flagging/keying.

This discussion should separately look at toons when they are not box'd.


It is actually.

If the event is so rare, why even have such a policy?

Have you ever had your engine overheat because you didn't put coolant in it for 3 years? When it finally overheated, that was a pretty rare instance. But boy, sure wish you took care of that before it became a rare instance.

disrespecting the contributions of one of my mains.


I never feel disrespected when Tribal Fury gets stronger /shrug odd viewpoint.

Ya know, I would like to bid on anything I want with Waystin. That would make me happy in my pants. But, I don't raid as much as Waystin and from what I can see, Drannor will do more good in the long run. I enjoy Drannor more so I choose him, even tho I enjoy Waystin as well.

I would not outbid another's main over a plate loot that they really needed. But, we don't write policy for ppl with common sense.

Instead of feeling animosity over the fact we are trying to look out for as many ppl as we can at any given time, try to help us make a stronger piece of policy.
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Postby Ranjaling » Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:22 pm

Serano wrote:TF has recruited a lot of peeps that wanted to be in a guild that didn't care about which char was a main.


Then why do we only list "mains" on the Guild Roster on our main website if we don't care? Every active playing toon with a TF tag should be listed there if this is the case.

I thought we recruited alot of people because we "allowed" as many alts/boxes in the guild as they want, not as many "mains" as they want.

I have nothing against alts, nor boxes. I have no problem with them bidding either since points are soulbound. I have tons of alts myself and they are key to some people in keeping this game refreshing to play.

While I recognize that I have put in alot of time into helping TF with my main, I also realize TF has put in alot of time into me and other people toons by constantly farming, backflagging, and getting people their epics to help them succeed on future raids.

If your main, with his EP & Epic 1.5 gear is sitting on the bench in favor of an alt then all the work the guild did in helping gear up that toon, and also depending on, to help us win raids is now not there and instead we have someone's Baz geared 5k hp Beastlord there trying to earn DKP. This is the problem we face.

The outcome of the box cap voting is what decided my vote in this voting thread but my feelings of alts and boxes being in the same category is my opinion. I can agree to disagree with those that don't share the same opinion.

In this time in EQ anyone can have a lvl 70 in 2-3weeks of MM's or PL'ing and amass 5-6 lvl 70 alts in 90 days. We already have people with 5-6 capable raiding toons/alts. How are we going to progress at all if people EP gear and epic 1.5 one toon then bench him to do the same with their next favorite alt, then their 3rd, 4th, etc..

I see no real easy solution to this but again, look at Phishn's link and you will see prolly 95% of the time this won't even be a factor. People are taking this like alts might be completely snubbed out or something which is rediculous.

Thats why we are putting it here for the members to vote on and for one moment try to think of the big picture here and our guilds focus instead of acting like the "officers" are out to destroy your extra toons rights.
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heh

Postby bill » Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:36 pm

I'm here to destroy as much as I can, speak for yourself ranja ;)
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Postby Kaylar » Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:46 pm

phishn00 wrote:
Listen Alt 70 Enchanter 164.00 0.00 0.00 164.00


0 dkp spent on her, despite the fact that Britley plays her nearly all the time she's on. But Brit would still rather see guildies get the upgrade than her box / alt, even though she clearly deserves it. If there were more people like her playing eq, Norrath would be a much better place.


That's alot. You deserve to get some upgrades for her. With that many points saved up, you should be able to get something nice.

I know for a fact I am one of those types of people. Has anyone ever just clicked on my magelo? Do you see what I'm wearing. There's alot there that I would love to upgrade. I guess this was breed into me. I believe in need before greed. I always have been that way.

I have 3 other alts myself. But you can tell which one is my main. I play Kaylar more than any of them. (when I can find the time) That's the way it should be. When we are raiding and trying to progress, it only seems right to bring your main. It was your first toon to get major upgrades. Why not bring him/her. Besides we have all gotten to know your main toon, over your alt.

I voted the third one. I don't think alts should bid on items. Please see the last paragraph above.
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Postby phishn00 » Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:08 pm

It all comes back to what all dkp discussions do: greed.

Those who would rather get high end drops for their alts than have a TF main get them are greedy. You can't deny that.

This discussion is only pertaining to high end drops.

Those who play "2 mains": is it going to benefit the guild more by having each of your toons with top gear, which you play 50% of the time, more than mains who are played 90+% of the time?

Think about when you're just exp'ing. Do you want your tank wearing the BP from Time, or do you want it sitting on a toon that only gets played every once in a while?


In the end, this discussion will separate those who want what's best for the guild, and those who want what's best for themselves.
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Postby Baromen » Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:51 pm

see, everyone has said that Listen deserves loot for her time put in, correct?


Well, then why wouldn't someone's alt who earned 10dkp not deserve a 10dkp drop? Or an alt that earned 100dkp not deserve a 100dkp drop?

Here's why:

As Dran said, I only play Baromen (at least for raids... Bardomen FTW). I can't raid a ton because of work and my half hearted social life. At least not as much as I want to. If it was up to me I'd be at 100% of the raids and be someone you could count on to be there just as much as the TF tag under your name, but I can't physically do it.

If Dran was (more of) an asshole and decided to bid the shit out of a plate drop for Waystin that would be a major upgrade for me, he'd win. That's just how it is. At least for now while I'm a dedicated, but new member of the tribe.

I'm trying to think of solutions. Only thing I can think of, and it's too time consuming and detail oriented to make it worth it, would be if someone was bidding against an alt and ONLY an alt (Baromen vs Waystin for Warrior only drop) send tells of what's being upgraded to see if it should be priced and given.

Waystin bids 40, baro bids 50, waystin bids 60, baromen bids 70. Bilnick Baro and waystin send tells to me. Baromen: it's a huge upgrade to this, Waystin it's a huge upgrade to this. Bilnick Priced at 70, awarded to baromen.

That would even suck because seeing as I hate serano for slapping my momma and he hates me for lighting a bag of poo on fire on his porch... if he was RL he'd give it away and I'd hate him for that too.

Grr.... I'm just throwing shit out there... I stink at solutions.
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Postby ForsakerTrull » Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:10 pm

Hmmm is this a hint " Ranjaling -If your main, with his EP & Epic 1.5 gear is sitting on the bench in favor of an alt then all the work the guild did in helping gear up that toon, and also depending on, to help us win raids is now not there and instead we have someone's Baz geared 5k hp Beastlord there trying to earn DKP. This is the problem we face.

Forsaker: 546 raids attended
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=677721 hmmmm yup check ep gear epic 1.5

Khewtoy: 24 raids attended
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1087762 hmmmm ok so 5k a bit of a stretch

So is there a problem here?

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Postby Ranjaling » Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:42 pm

ForsakerTrull wrote:Hmmm is this a hint " Ranjaling -If your main, with his EP & Epic 1.5 gear is sitting on the bench in favor of an alt then all the work the guild did in helping gear up that toon, and also depending on, to help us win raids is now not there and instead we have someone's Baz geared 5k hp Beastlord there trying to earn DKP. This is the problem we face.

Forsaker: 546 raids attended
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=677721 hmmmm yup check ep gear epic 1.5

Khewtoy: 24 raids attended
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1087762 hmmmm ok so 5k a bit of a stretch

So is there a problem here?

Trull


WTF?

Saker, That statement wasn't based off your toons and in no way was I making an example of anyone or saying that this is being done.

Just because You have a 1.5 and a Beastlord don't assume shit please. I didn't even know your damn beastlord was 5k hp either. Nice coincidence though. I didn't see you even in here bitching about Khew's rights to bid anyway so why would I make you an example? Your like the 3rd ranked raiding person in TF history with Saker so I think we well know your position on what toon is your main.

Again, people taking everything I say as literally or as an insult personally to them is why I wanted to stay the fuck out of this debate when it came to the members. Unfortunately I stepped in here anyway and now Saker thinks I'm bashing his alt. /grats me

~~edit~~ I actually made sure I didn't put down Necromancer and used Bst as an example just so this same shit wouldnt happen with Oerin thinking I was using Meso as an example. Guess I should've just put down (X-Toon) but then everyone with a 5k hp alt would've assumed I was pointing out their alt I guess.

My post was a total random choice of (class/level/hp) to express a point but people aren't looking at the points, they are instead looking for insults that aren't there to fire back upon.

/defend off
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Postby Meso » Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:23 pm

I do see both sides of the coin. And I do understand the concern for allocation of guild time and resources.
As for me, I've played Oerin 80% for over 5 years. I have dabbled with other alts but not too much, except for Mesohawnee.
She's not that old yet, and I've worked hard levelling her up, the hard way. She may well become my "main" one day, but not quite yet. I do want to raid her. She won't ask much of the guild except for keys (when it's convenient and not taking away from someone's "main"), hand me down spells, and meager drops as she earns them. My intent is for her to become a very useful, very powerful asset to the guild. One day Meso will be equal to Oerin and may surpass him in many ways.

Those that develop Alternative mains (as opposed to "alts") are adding very useful diversity to the guild. How often have we had to compromise raid goals because a certain class was missing or too few in numbers??

`EDIT` - ling, this post was not in response to yours. Meso is not significant enough yet to be an issue. My opinions on this subject are more general than personal in nature.
Last edited by Meso on Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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