Policy Change Regarding Boxes and Bidding (Cap)

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Postby Toisrus » Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:27 pm

It sounds like there is substantial agreement about the general policy for handling boxes, and I agree with the drift of what has been said.

I will save my comments on the issue regarding dkp for alts until that thread is started. However, I can see that the dkp for alts issue will be much more complex and controversial.
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Postby Ceruis » Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:38 pm

I'mmmmmmmmmm soooooooooo looking forward to the controversy. :stupid
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hehe

Postby bill » Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:39 pm

However, I can see that the dkp for alts issue will be much more complex and controversial.


No doubt! It will basically question the very philosophy and mission of Tribal Fury!

It is possible no change will come of the discussion so don't be afraid to make your voices heard!

Change isn't always a bad thing, but I want the members to feel we have created the most fair and just environment possible. The debate is that are we shooting ourselves in the foot by letting alts of lower play time % outbid mains over a capped amount of DKP.

As you can probably tell, I am dying to get into that conversation. My biggest problem is that I can't read everyone's minds. I need to know how many people see things differently and how they see them.

One thing I love about a guild so big is that we have a vast pool of people to draw opinions, ideas, points and counterpoints as well as drawing on personal experiences of the past.
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Re: hehe

Postby Kaylar » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:04 pm

bill wrote:Change isn't always a bad thing, but I want the members to feel we have created the most fair and just environment possible. The debate is that are we shooting ourselves in the foot by letting alts of lower play time % outbid mains over a capped amount of DKP.


I want to comment sooooooooo bad here, but I will refrain from saying anything atm.
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ok

Postby bill » Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:41 am

Hehehe Kaylar bring that to the next thread that opens tomorrow.

By the end of the day today this piece of policy will be written in if there is no more debate to be had. Then we can begin the other portion.
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Postby Azzenkar Emberune » Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:59 am

One mans (Dark Elfs?) opinion here but I personally feel boxed toons have zero rights to expect loot or be allowed to bid. Boxed means not your primary focus thus can almost be kept outside of raid in general. The situations where a boxed toon makes or breaks a raid is almost negligable. The TF way HAS ALWAYS been make do with what ya got adapt improvise and overcome. By allowing boxed toons bidding rights even with a cap you dilute from the PRIMARY focus of raiding which is gearing up our MAIN raid force. Thus I am against even having them bid much less having to worry about a cap. Again this is just my opinion and I will go with the flow reguardless of how this gets handled with full support. I may not like it but /shrug its really a minor issue.
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ok

Postby bill » Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:18 am

OK Azz, let's look at one point:

make do with what ya got adapt improvise and overcome


When we need to pull out that boxed cleric to win the fight, and it has 3FT and a 4k mana pool, that's when we are hurting ourselves.

Those boxes don't just hang out and gather dust. Very few boxes come to raids and simply stand there. I know some do and those don't earn any dkp anyhow.

One thing to remember is that to get dkp, we need to feel you've earned it. We aren't perfect, but we try as hard as we can to be observant.

When that boxed cleric is castin vic on the battle-rezzed so main clerics can keep healing but can't because he can't bid on the rune, that is hurting us.

However, letting that boxed cleric bid 55dkp to win on an item over kaylar, that is something I have a problem with.

A specific example was Fwatu. He outbid mains for a 40ish dkp spell. It was basically all of that toon's dkp and Fwatu has been helping us for a while as one of Ayragon's boxes. That rune is going to continue to be reinvested in the Tribe. Fwatu won't be bidding on another rune for quite some time since they still go for 30-40dkp a pop.

It's a tough balance Azz and I can definitely see your point. This is why we want to hear from you folks.
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Re: ok

Postby Ayragon » Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:45 am

bill wrote:When we need to pull out that boxed cleric to win the fight, and it has 3FT and a 4k mana pool, that's when we are hurting ourselves.

Those boxes don't just hang out and gather dust. Very few boxes come to raids and simply stand there. I know some do and those don't earn any dkp anyhow.

One thing to remember is that to get dkp, we need to feel you've earned it. We aren't perfect, but we try as hard as we can to be observant.

When that boxed cleric is castin vic on the battle-rezzed so main clerics can keep healing but can't because he can't bid on the rune, that is hurting us.

However, letting that boxed cleric bid 55dkp to win on an item over kaylar, that is something I have a problem with.

A specific example was Fwatu. He outbid mains for a 40ish dkp spell. It was basically all of that toon's dkp and Fwatu has been helping us for a while as one of Ayragon's boxes. That rune is going to continue to be reinvested in the Tribe. Fwatu won't be bidding on another rune for quite some time since they still go for 30-40dkp a pop.

It's a tough balance Azz and I can definitely see your point. This is why we want to hear from you folks.



Totally agree with Bill's statement (and took me over a year to earn that DKP for Fwatu:-)) If you take the incentive away, you take away the boxes. Trust me its not a whole helluva lot a fun spam clicking the /cast wunshi /cast fortitude icons, and slowing whilst trying to keep up Ranger DPS. And absolutely, having an extra shaman (or being the only one) can make or break a raid (not as much an issue anymore). As long as a policy isn't implemented that prevents me from being able to loot another glowing rune in late 2007 or 2008 sometime, I'll be ok

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Postby Serano » Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:00 pm

If you take the incentive away, you take away the boxes.


not really. My incentive to box is to ensure the victory. Getting extra credit is a bonus. Same same tho - the DKP I have spent on Taniquel typically has helped.

she has bought FT boots, Book, mask and a good Velious belt. And maybe took away RGC clicky from some priest class that can cast it - but it is easier to delgate RGC duties to her and I can just chain click away if that situation comes up in the future.

Couple peeps are harassing me to get her the rez stick quest done - so that she doesn't have to brun mana when rezzing the raiders - but meh - dont' know if I feel like camping that mob in Sol Ro for the 3rd time (kept some clerics company there in the before before time). Meh.
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Postby Serano » Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:19 pm

old
3) Raid Points

m) boxed toons can bid on items on equal footing with the other raiders by whoever is currently boxing them if the real owner allows for this bidding.


New:

3) Raid Points

m) boxed toons can bid on items on against the other raiders by whoever is currently boxing them if the real owner allows for this bidding with a cap of 50 DKP per item. The first Box to bid 50 is the last box elligible to bid on that item - any main can outbid the box with 51.


http://tribalfury.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3685

AS a note about DKP policy in general. DKP is not the way Drannor wants it - it isn't the way I want it. every officer actually has a differant way that they "think" it should be - let alone every member. Running a "fair" system for loot distribution in EQ is one of the more challenging prospects a guild faces - depending on the guild philosophy. We have a LOT of members that have been here a LONG time and then there are new members. Those Old schoolers have seen a LOT of changes in the way we handle loot. I rember having to have peeps link me their loots and deciding which would win it based on my knowledge of their gear - a gut feeling of the last time they got loot and the in general upgrade of the item. I remember friends Crying in RL after loot decisions... it was terrible.

other guilds thrive on god looting and in all honesty - a full time raiding guild progresses faster with God Looting than any other system. But our system has typically been from a general agreement from our members. Doing the best we can with the diverse playstyles and play philosophies is all we can aim for. For every player that wants boxes to be considered an equal main - the concept of playing (and paying for) more than one account can turn some of our long time compatriot's tummys. I have logged onto players that Asked me to box them for a flag and found they don't even have a mule. just one level 70 character. Other peeps I have logged on and saw they have 8 level 60 - 70s. So clearly playstyles and opinons about alts vary.

What we have tried to do in TF is strike a balance against so much diversity and keep peeps as best happy as we could - with tolerance to differant concepts of what playstyle is legitimate or "normal." So bear with us as we continue to "tune" our policies to better enhance the time we spend moving thru content and having fun together.
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Postby Meso » Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:57 pm

So what if the box is also a main (someone elses main that couldn't be at the keyboard)?
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Postby Serano » Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:09 pm

l) Boxed chars are elligible to bid on loot with DKP earned by that character alone. No Boxed characters may trade points to or from their mains or other characters. For DKP purposes, a Boxed toon is one that is CURRENTLY being boxed by another player at that raid
m) boxed toons can bid on items on against the other raiders by whoever is currently boxing them if the real owner allows for this bidding with a cap of 50 DKP per item. The first Box to bid 50 is the last box elligible to bid on that item - any main can outbid the box with 51.
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Postby Drigarx » Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:14 pm

I like it :thumbup , not having any rules on boxes can lead to disaster down the road. I persnoally think the rules set forth for boxes is fair. But thats just my 2cp
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Re: ok

Postby Kaylar » Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:43 pm

bill wrote:However, letting that boxed cleric bid 55dkp to win on an item over kaylar, that is something I have a problem with.


Refrain from comment, still.
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ok

Postby bill » Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:43 pm

Let's look at an example Oerin:

Oerin is skipping along to a poFire raid to kill Fennin Ro the flower god.

Seraphian says aw shingles, I can't make it but I need my poFlowers flag. Oerin can you be a buddy and help me out?

Oerin being the person he is says sure.

So now Oerin walks in boxing Seraphian. How much DKP does Oerin get?

1DKP/hour for Oerin. Seraphian is not accumulating DKP since he is not there and the RL did not request him.

This is exactly like if Seraphian was Mesohawnee. Oerin is bringing an extra toon without request meaning Oerin gets DKP but seraphian/mesohawnee does not.

Of course as always, there are ways to get around the system and cheat it. We in management can only trust that our members are not trying to cheat us after all the work we've put into this system.
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