Policy Change Regarding Boxes and Bidding (Cap)

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Policy Change Regarding Boxes and Bidding (Cap)

Postby bill » Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:01 pm

Hi Folks,

As of recent, we've been taking a closer look at the distribution of loot amongst our guild memebers. Some members also control "boxed" characters or extra toons that they bring along to the raid.

Generally, these extra toons generate 0DKP when boxed unless the raid leader feels the presence of said box is contributing to the success of the raid in a capacity otherwise not readily available.

Meaning boxing that 15th druid at the fire minis hit probably won't warrant DKP on that box. But being the only druid or one of a small few would be a vast difference.

At any rate, we've been entertaining the idea that these boxed toons should not be able to take priority for loot (outbid) other main characters in the guild also bidding for the same loot.

But, Boxed toons DO contribute, so we needed to find a happy medium. Our solution is to place a cap of 50DKP maximum bid by any boxed character.

Basically, if you are controlling 1 toon, you are free to bid as you wish. For each extra toon you bring, that boxed toon can only bid up to 50DKP on any specific piece of loot at any given time.

Please share your thoughts on this, the policy will be going live pending this discussion where some more viewpoints can be examined and possibly change and strengthen this idea.
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Postby Drigarx » Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:30 pm

There are many seperate ways to do this but from what I've hear from friends what worked the best was Boxed toons/alts earned 1/2 dkp from mains, so instead of earning 1dkp they would earn .5 dkp. Me personally it doesn't bother cause this is the first raiding guild I've been in that even let tag an alt hehe.


Just my 2cp
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Postby Drigarx » Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:46 pm

On a side note ) The only thing that kinda bugs me is the way DKPs are handled with the whole bidding thing going on. Don't get me wrong and don't take this the wrong way, I am in no way bashing the system, I'm just telling my feelings on it.

The only fair way I have seen loot handled is with set DKP values. Basically lets say Veroks earring drops. Set value would be 85dkp (example) Anyone that wants to bid just says "IN". The person with the highest DKP value wins that item. The reason for this is lets take The DBoTW in PoTime and take 2 wars for example me and Jum. First raid Dbotw drops and me and jum get in a bidding frenzy and he spends 120 for it (theoreticly) what happens the next raid it drops?? Yep I bid 1 and win. Is that fair to Jum? Now if the Dbotw had a set value of 75, and he had more dkp than me he'd win first and I'd win second yet we both spent the same amount for the same item.

Also, with the current system it is open to price jacking. What I mean by this is lets take me and jum for example again on the Dbotw. One drops, Jum sends me a tell, "Hey I have more dkp than you and am going to do whatever it takes, what do you say you don't bid and next time something drops I will do the same so we can keep our DKPs up"
I'm not saying anyone is doing this, I'm just saying it is open for the jacking.

Set DKP values remove any possiblity of price jacking and keeps everyone on an even playing field.
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Postby Serano » Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:00 pm

We discussed setting values for items - but opted for a "free" economy from the begining. FOr some reason The first way we decided to do bids was silent bids. IT WENT QUICK --- you only got to bid once - but you had no idea if you were bidding too much. I don't remember why we went that way - I think it was because Dela proposed it that way and we never went otherwise.

A couple officers (shalow) was a STRONG proponent for price fixing all drops and going with what you have said. After about a year of DKP we went to /gu bidding and it has proven more popular. I know a lot of other guilds do it X ways -- but this is truely a home brewed process... With tuning from the officers and input from the members it has worked.

One of the major issues I have against setting prices for items is that 1) I don't want to be the one to set the prices 2) I don't think I will agree with the prices that peeps set.

A secondary reason I don't like SET prices on items is because that is Unfair to the casual raiders. Huh? See if a TOP price of say 50DKP on say a hot loot was set --- I would win it. I have the most DKP of a chain class likely to buy it. But say someone who had 125 DKP REALLY wanted the item --- they would either force me to buy it at 130 Thus gouging me - but keeps me from winning the next 5 drops without contest.

So while the TOP DKP earners are still guaranteed top loot if they want to bid for it - they might lose out on more DKP that way on a no cap bidding system thus making it ultimatly easier for a lower attendance raider from winning an item down the road. Maybe time would justify the Caped system as being more Fair - I just don't see it that way.

Like the next time (or the time after) Verok drops his bauble - I am walking away with it. And really --- there are only a few DKPers that can prevent that. By not having a cap -if I REALLY want it - I get it but I pays what it is worth free market vs what some officer or cabal of officers came up with.
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Postby Drigarx » Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:29 pm

I understand and respect all of that Serano. I guess the only things I'm worried about and see a problem with are the class specific items. But time will tell on those.
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Postby phishn00 » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:24 pm

I hear ya Drig. We haven't come across that issue yet as a guild. We may need to adjust policies later on, but for the time being, here's my take on it.

Say we have 2 warrs and a Dbotw (Darkblade of the Warlord, warr only wep to avoid the wha? posts) drops. Each of the warriors must consider:

- whether we will see another Dbotw drop
- how many warriors will be there on the next raid if we do see another drop
- should I spend 50 now, or wait until next raid where it may or may not drop, where I may or may not win the bid at 40, or where I may get it for 1

All of these will be going on in the mind of each warrior. Is there a chance someone will get a sick item for 1 dkp? Yes. Is that the worst thing in the world? No.

Sometimes you just get lucky. Imo, this issue isn't a big enough factor to completely overhaul the dkp system
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Postby Zyzzerzazz » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:30 pm

What class spefic items do you mean?

Like a Rog only drop?

Free market value = complete and ultimate player choice.

If Jumjam, Forco, and you want to have a bidding war for the DBotW then so be it.....Whoever is willing to drop the most on it get it first. Then the next one drops and 2 of you bid it out....then the 3rd man get it the cheapest - but get its last.

Its all what you decide unless you cannot compete with the DKP amounts of the other bidders. In that case usually the low man will go ALL IN and bid all his 100 DKP against Serano ( who has 250+ ) in hopes that it will scare him away and settle for the next one that drops.

Its all choice IMO.

I bid my dkp like an animal because I want the drops first. I have a complex that claws at me asking " Are you SURE it wil drop again " before I decide how bad I want it.

That and I usually know the loot I am willing to bid and how much when it drops ahead of time.

THAT way I am never called to make an ON THE SPOT bid and get screwed over on a bad call I make on the fly.

Damn it Phishn said all I did already - jinx.
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Postby Drigarx » Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:04 pm

Zyzz if you want I can link every class specific item there is in game(rogue only, bard only, mage only, war only etc etc) but the thread would get rather large. I can think of around 8 class specific items from PoTime alone. I respect how the DKP system is regardless of whether I agree with or not. I know this is trivial and I don't want anyone thinking I'm an ass for the posts I make because I'm not trying to overhaul anything. I'm just giving my inputs and yall can do with em how you please and whatever that is then I'll follow with 0 complaints.
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Postby Zyzzerzazz » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:04 pm

hey, please dont think I / we - are not open to new ideas or process.

I welcome debate and actually enjoy it on a respecful and logical avenue.

All teh hard work thats involved in an overhaul is all the more worth it as long as the guild is effected in a more positive manner.

Untill some1 or ppl present another alternative thats clear and well thought out - one that overcomes the easy and fairness of the current system, I think we have had a winner for a long time now.

Again tho - I am and always will be open to ideas and debate.
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Postby Serano » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:16 pm

I think what drig is saying - is that he wants a monk to have to pay more than 1 dkp or 0 if there is only one monk at a raid. IMO -- being the only of a class there when a class specific means you EARNED it for zero DKP - since the rest of the class decided not to bother to show.
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Postby Baromen » Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:53 am

Drigarx wrote:Also, with the current system it is open to price jacking. What I mean by this is lets take me and jum for example again on the Dbotw. One drops, Jum sends me a tell, "Hey I have more dkp than you and am going to do whatever it takes, what do you say you don't bid and next time something drops I will do the same so we can keep our DKPs up"
I'm not saying anyone is doing this, I'm just saying it is open for the jacking.


What I've seen (heard) happened once that made me angry, but it's obviously a part of an open economy was when someone saw something going cheaper than he thought it should and bid it up even though he knew that he was going be outbid.

I thought that was pretty shitty of him.

I don't think that happens enough to warrant a change, but I just figured this was a good time to mention that if you do something like that you're just screwing a guildie out of DKP that might have bought him the gear he needs to keep your ass alive on your tipt, or your epic 1.5 hit, etc etc.

I like the idea, drig, but I don't have enough DKP to win out either way. I'd hate to see something rot because I was the only warrior without a warrior specific item and I didn't have the 90DKP it was set as being worth. (I'm sure THAT wouldn't happen, but you know what I mean).

I like the way it is because if someone's got 200DKP and you know they are going to outbid you on anything you both want you can blow out his DKP trying to get him to give up. Next time he's not so far ahead anymore.

ramble ramble ramble... bed
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Postby Serano » Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:43 am

OH - Tf will never let something rot because someone didn't have DKP... guilds that do that are idiots and asses.
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Postby phishn00 » Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:47 am

I think what drig is saying - is that he wants a monk to have to pay more than 1 dkp or 0 if there is only one monk at a raid


Heh remember that year when Bilnick was the only pally in guild and got like 300,000 weps for 1 dkp?

hotkey /tell bilnick brells meh cause nobody wants to play a pally

Those were good times
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Postby Ayragon » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:06 pm

Personally I like the bidding system, I think its quite fair (with the obvious flaws of any system). But going back to the original posts main point regarding boxed toons, I think they have as much right to bid on loot as any other raider. I may be a bit biased on the matter as I have one (which may or may not have fueled this discussion), but either way, I feel DKP earned is exactly that....earned. I don't usually 2 box, but if the raid is short shaman'ed, or he's requested, then sure I'll do it. It took me over a year to gain 45 DKP, and all of 1 glowing rune to spend the lot. So who cares, spend your DKP, if you think its too high a bid, then don't bid on it, that the point of the whole system. If a box outbids a main? Oh well, bid higher or next time, that box must have been of value along the many past raids to gain enough points to bid on anything.....There are extremly valuable boxers in the guild (not me, but lots of others).

Well my 2cp worth, as it may be....peace
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aye

Postby bill » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:14 pm

That's the heart of the debate right there Ayragon. Boxes DO contribute.

Thanks for the input.
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