Vote for Epic Help Proposal

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Moderator: Officers

Should a quest raid cost DKP for the Quester?

Poll ended at Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:30 pm

Yes
7
19%
No
21
58%
Needs Tuning
8
22%
 
Total votes : 36

Postby Drakonius » Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:44 am

I voted "Needs Tuning" (I know I havent been in guild long, and havent been on lately due to school and such, but I'd like to at least give my input so my name in the guild roster isnt COMPLETELY useless atm :? )

I agree that requested hits such as epic hits and whatnot SHOULD have some form of time requirement or attendance requirement that needs to be met...I've only been in guild a short time and feel that as of yet havent really been there to help out as much as I'd like...I really hope that changes soon =/. I'd eventually like to get my epic 1.5, but know that I've nowhere NEAR put the time and effort into helping the guild as many others have who still havent gotten the help they want or need, and wouldn't even THINK of asking for help on my 1.5 at this time based on this fact...however, obviously there have been a few in the near past who have had no objections to doing just such (or so I just read in this post, Ive really missed alot of the goings on in guild with my terrible schedule and current absence) and I really dont think its fair that anyone be able to demand the time and effort of those who have put more time and effort into helping the guild and its members.

I'm not entirely sure where I stand on the issue of charging DKP for hits (great lot of help I am). I do believe it is fair to charge someone for the guilds time...but Im not sure if a flat rate would be fair to those who have a considerably larger amount of hits to get to the same result (i.e. epics)...I liked Nennie's idea of implementing a scale of sorts to determine just how much DKP should be charged depending on the hit.

I don't really like the idea of a lockout on the request...sure it would get old if the same person kept throwing up the DKP for the hit every time it was attempted and failed, but as long as no one else was requesting a hit then I feel it would be fair for them to be able to retry as soon as the guild was willing to do another epic hit. Chances are there wont be a time when only one person would have their DKP offered up for a hit, and the person who just had a hit would just be moved to the back of the list after an unsuccessful hit, or after throwing up the required DKP for another hit.

At any rate, its late, and I'm pretty sure like, none to half of what i just posted made any sense, and even less was even necessary to say as it had already been said...anyhow, sorry for the long and probably completely incoherent input, and I hope to be back soon to help out regardless of whether DKP is being charged for the epic hits or not.
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Postby Serano » Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:46 am

I voted no and I knew what I was voting on.
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no

Postby Lemme » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:01 pm

I voted no. If I had voted needs tuning, I would definitely say that a canceled due to lack of numbers does not equal failed. Shouldnt have to pay and/or go to the back of the line if there was no hit.

So Que left the guild? Yes, do think we need a rule about joining the guild and asking for an epic hit on day three. Actually I think we shouldnt need a rule, it should be common sense not to do that.

I wouldnt be upset if we implemented this idea, especially if it takes some of the burden off of the officers/raid leaders regarding who's hit to do.
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hehe

Postby bill » Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:35 pm

Personally I liked the way Krysstian has been setting them up on a first come, first serve basis and making people come to the MB


Hehe, that's funny. I have the second oldest post for requesting help on the message board.



Since then, I ran a hit against THO and Grigor in the deep, and I ran a hit against Akksstaff.

03/09/05 Akksstaff's Minion Epic hit for Drannor

02/03/05 Grigor Mage Epic 1.5 mob
02/03/05 THO First Time Kill


I waited 7 months before running my own hit. Then I waited another month before running my next hit. Neither of which required a raid force by our standards today. However, neither of which had ever been tried by TF before.

So since March, how many ppl have completed their epics?

04/23/05 Omen's quest hits Teim's Final for Epic 1.5 Grats
05/14/05 Omen's quest hits Grats on new sword Brikksx
09/01/05 Sir Elmonious Falmont (SK 1.5) Grats Angy....
09/07/05 Krekk (warrior epic 1.5 final hit) Grats Jumjam (finally!!)
09/10/05 Swarmfiend For Adlewiese 1.5
09/20/05 Tarlang Grats Sinadar


Guys, the system is not rewarding the ppl that put forth the most effort.

it rewards the ppl that yell the loudest. I want that to stop. Finally.

I'm not saying these ppl didn't deserve help, they all have helped out big in my eyes. So many have helped just as much though with nothing in return.
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Postby morbi » Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:57 pm

Would it help guild leadersip if there was a application process to getting epics, much like applying to guild.

There are guild requirments to joining guild we could have posted guild requirements to getting epic. The amount of time you have been in guild, raid percentage, ?.

Maybe people could post whay they think they should get guild assistance for epic.

How about having people vote, like in guild membership, if they think this person should get epic assistance. Is there a way to make voting result secrete. Or maybe it should be public and people how vote yes on assistance also commit to attending raid.

This might be a terrible idea. Just a guy rambling being bored at work.
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Re: hehe

Postby Nennie » Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:57 pm

bill wrote:
Guys, the system is not rewarding the ppl that put forth the most effort.

it rewards the ppl that yell the loudest. I want that to stop. Finally.

I'm not saying these ppl didn't deserve help, they all have helped out big in my eyes. So many have helped just as much though with nothing in return.


And charging those people who help out more dkp is going to change it and cause people to show up more? We should be helping people like you, and everyone else who deserves it, but for free. They've paid enough with their time, and the guild returning the favor should be the payback. A system of sorts needs to be set up, but negative dkp should be left out of it.
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Postby Krysstian » Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:16 pm

Dran you've been the victim of circumstance in getting your epic hits done. If you recall, we've made three scheduling attempts of your epic hits. The first one we had three mage hits planned for the night, you were running late that night, and got stuck with Air, which turned out to be bugged, or someone had already killed it, we're not sure what happened there. The next weekend, we lost to the Earth dude for Miark, and we couldn't do Fire for you because you had inadvertently deleted your hand in components to trigger the fight :lolmen: . The last weekend you were scheduled, I was going to do the fight right after you, but we only had 20 something people show up in Tactics. You can't really say that we haven't tried, although we should have moved back to Tactics to try the Fire dude instead of doing Menlo that first week.

That was three weekend attempts in a row, and this weekend will make the 4th. Would the earlier three attempts have counted for you being locked out? If so, that's nine weeks worth of lockout right there, ouch :) That does not mean that you're not worth scheduling a hit for this weekend, cuz we all <3 ya. I've basically been keeping people in the rotation if a script was bugged, we'd lost to it less than 3 times, or people didn't show up, so you would've been scheduled anyway, had I the time this weekend to run them.

But also, as I said, I have been less than fair to the officers when it comes to scheduling these hits. I put members before them if a member signs up on that week's epic threads, because I don't want people to feel they've been unseated by the officers or that the officers are showing rank favoritism...rankitism? to coin a word. I was accused of favoritism once when scheduling these things, now I take extra care in order to avoid that charge, perhaps too much so.

So I am a bit biased in my leaning toward the dkp charge. I won't feel guilty about scheduling my own hits, or another officer's. If they've paid for the guild's time in accomplishing a goal, then they receive it, no questions asked. And in the case of multiple targets, like the handful of mages that are pretty much at the same stage, the first one to buy a hit gets to pick what they want killed. The next person working on the same epic gets a pick of what's left, unless it is a triggered mob like the Fire dude in Tactics, or there is a 2 hour or less respawn time that we might be able to work in at the end perhaps. Just an extra thought there.
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hehe

Postby bill » Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:45 pm

Nennie, if things were as you say they should be, this thread would not exist. Unfortunately.

The next weekend, we lost to the Earth dude for Miark, and we couldn't do Fire for you because you had inadvertently deleted your hand in components to trigger the fight


I was not present on this weekend of which you speak. I've had the guild try twice for me, once was for Air which we didn't know how to do at all.

The other was the fire hit no one showed up for.
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Postby wileyc143 » Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:14 pm

I voted needs tuning for several reasons

1> 20 DKP per hit for my 1.5 would cost me majority of my DKP.
Suggestion -- Make the hits for the Epics a SET DKP for each member I would be a LOT more willing to spend it for that knowing its = for all members.

2> Lock out on hits----- See this is a bad idea, I know that I am not the only guy that can not raid every night. I try to make the tuesday and thursday hits. As of lately Saturday has been the Epic hit days. Thats a day that I choose to spend with my kids. I am not complaining in that aspect, I just don't think that it would be fair to lock out members that can't make it to X days that are pre determined.

I would Love to see some kind of system put into place and these are the most concerning ones to me.

Thanks
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Postby EQIsenhart » Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:18 pm

I voted yes; however, like others have mentioned, some epic hits are far tougher than others, so perhaps if we came up with a sliding scale of sorts that adjusted the dkp cost to fit the encounter it would be much more successful.
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Postby Bilnick » Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:16 pm

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:38 am


What I really want to know is how you requested epic 1.5 hits before Omens was released ???? :jester
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Re: hehe

Postby Ranjaling » Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:15 am

bill wrote:
Personally I liked the way Krysstian has been setting them up on a first come, first serve basis and making people come to the MB


Hehe, that's funny. I have the second oldest post for requesting help on the message board.


What I meant by saying I like him setting them up like he has is that since nobody knows what days people are wife factioning, playing poker /hint, or doing whatever then it's harder to schedule hits blindly.

Kryss having people request in his thread are people who obviously, or at least should be able to make their hits and must sign up for them instead of scheduling a 6 month old post by someone and not knowing if they will even be on.

I wasn't saying that it was first come, first serve for ANYONE but it should be for the X number of people who meet a "guild membership deadline".

Maybe 30days is to long, perhaps a 2 week lockout then would be better. By fails I don't mean "not enough showing up" i mean we tried the event and wiped, then quit.
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hehe

Postby bill » Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:11 pm

Wow so much feedback!!!

There is a parallel thread in the officer forum as well trying to pull the useful parts out.

I think this is branching into 2 main philosophies.

Neither of which involves lock-out timers, per se.

First and foremost seems to be the idea that attendence will be the primary criteria. The only way we can really quantify help is via raiding.

I am thinking that we can couple this with the DKP cost idea and then add Saiari's idea of mitigating the DKP cost by increments (say 1DKP for example) per raid helped on.

I'd be interested to come up with a more developed version of this concept.

Perhaps say, 20 DKP for a hit -1 to the cost for every NON-progression raid attended since your last hit?

Or maybe simply lower the total cost as this seems to be a major source of concern.

Maybe lower it to 15. Then it would only require 15 hits to basically earn your own.

Say we make that number 15, how about a required amount of time with the guild?

Gimme more feedback! This is becoming quite a thought out plan and I like that!

Oh hey Bil, yeah WTH, I can't really imagine what I had there posted for quest help before the 1.5. but you are right, that's like 1.5 months or so before oow came out hehe!
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