Vote for Epic Help Proposal

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Should a quest raid cost DKP for the Quester?

Poll ended at Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:30 pm

Needs Tuning
Total votes : 36

Vote for Epic Help Proposal

Postby bill » Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:30 pm

I am proposing a DKP cost to basically trade for the guild's services on quest hits.

This DKP cost would get a guild sponsored hit on the day that would be most effective as possible.

Meaning one could set up a Wednesday hit if that was the only day they had available.

Be warned, there needs to be checks and balances to this proposal so here they come.

When requesting an epic OR QUEST (epics are quests, remember that) there will be a flat DKP fee of 20DKP per "successful" request. No DKP is charged on a failed hit.

HOWEVER, on a failed hit (failed can also mean canceled due to lack of numbers) there needs to be a lockout of sorts on that person so that one person doesn't keep spamming until they win.

The lockout would be until the Quester has helped in at least 3 quest-related hits. This lockout occurs after a successful hit as well.

All of this is subject to change as is in a proposal. I haven't brought this to the officers yet, I am bringing it directly to the entire guild to see where they stand on this concept.

I would like to require that

If this idea is completely unappealing to you, vote no.

If this idea is partially appealing but needs some tuning, vote Needs Tuning and post what you wanted to see addressed.

If this idea sounds logical and fair, please vote yes.
Last edited by bill on Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dethorx » Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:32 pm

I voted no. We don't award DKP for quest hits why on earth would we take DKP from the person working on his/her quest. It just seems like a way to drain more DKP from the system to me. I know we currently award DKP for epic 1.5 hits but when I finished my secrets of the planes quest nobody earned DKP. If I had been charged 20 DKP for that I would have never completed the quest.
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Postby bill » Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:37 pm

We don't award DKP for quest hits why on earth would we take DKP from the person working on his/her quest.

Newsflash, we do give DKP. Its a shame you based your vote on false information. What gave you this impression?

Also, about the quest you did, did you request the hit be run by the guild because I missed that entire hit.

Tell me what officer was present for that hit which did not recieve DKP and I can find out why it wasn't awarded.

We do NOT award DKP for pickup events. if you pull 12 ppl together and kill something, grats you.

If you come to Krysstian saying you need an epic hit scheduled, 20DKP.
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Postby bill » Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:42 pm

2 ppl posted needs tuning without any suggestions made.

Grats on not reading the post. =/
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Postby Meso » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:02 pm

Wasn't a selection there for Hell No!
I'll help any guildee whenever and however i can. And I will NOT charge for it.
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Postby bill » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:06 pm

You are not charging Oerin, the person requesting the guild's time is the one being charged, the guild is charging.

I'll help any guildee whenever and however i can. And I will NOT charge for it.

Where were you when I paid for my EP gloves??

What's the difference between a piece of loot you help someone get, and a piece of loot you help someone get?
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Postby Yoshikawa » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:27 pm

i voted yes. cause the way i see it is we pay DKP for items on raids such as EP patterns, kick ass weapons, and sexy new clothes. so how would that be much different from purchasing Epic / Quest items with DKP, which in essence turn into kick ass weapons, and sexy new clothes ?

my break down of DKP

DKP Earned = how much time and effort you put into the guild
DKP Spent = what the guild has given back to you
DKP Remaining = what the guild still owes you :thumbup :jester
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Postby phishn00 » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:40 pm

Biggest advantage I see to this is, if you don't show up to help with other people's hits, then it's gonna be tough to get your hit done.

The only reservation I have about charging a set 20 dkp per hit is, some epic hits require 1 raid (like the necro), and some need 4-6 (rog comes to mind). On one hand, spending 5 or 6x the dkp for a 1.5 just because soe decided to make your class' epic harder kinda sucks. At the same time though, needing 6 hits will of course take time to get done, so maybe it should cost the extra dkp.

This is a tough situation that will get easier in time, when we're able to 2 group the final nec hit and take out 10 or 15 raid mobs in a night.
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Postby morbi » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:54 pm

hard to come up with a clear answer for this. It make sense to charge DKP for a quest, but in some way it seems wrong also. A guild is suppose to help out a guild member do things like get a epic, but should it cost the member "something".

I side a bit on no and this is why. One of the reason i was excited (and still am) to join TF was because it was a "family style" guild that raids. Family to me implys we do things for each other and expect nothing in return whether that is as indivdual or group. Now i know this is not realistic. I do progresion raids so i can get to elemental planes and gain dkp. But i also do it to help out the guild. I am worried if we start charging for epics or quest we may loose some of that family feel and people will, even more so, do thing only because they will be getting something for thier efforts. I would hate to see more of that kind of attitude in our guild, even if it means a few people get some nice items that they didnt cost them anything.

Also I think the majority of us want to work on epic's so if the majority get help and it cost them nothing but helping others is that such a bad thing? DKP i see not only as a reward for helping guild but also as a way to disperse loot that is fair. No need to find a fair way to disperse loot in a quest like a epic hit. Hit is there to help out guildy and for most the idea of a drop is just a bonus.

Here is an example of what I mean. I just finished a part of my 1.5 epic quest and it cost me 20dkp. Soandso after raid ask in guild chat if guild will help with a single group 1.0 epic fight. I just spent 20dkp on my raid for guild assistance. Am i more inclined to help that guildy or do I start thinking "I paid for mine what is he or she going to do for thiers". Not saying i would feel this way, just saying this might be a outcome of charging.
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Postby Dethorx » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:58 pm

Drannor I was told by krysstian that DKp would not be rewarded on normal quest hits such as mine. It was a pickup type thing after we didn't have enough people for air one night. Maybe that's why there wasn't DKP awarded. Anyway I agree with phishn to an extent as well considering the wide variance in amount of hits required by come classes. Also what about the people who recieved the 1.5 before this change. Making it free for them and cost for us seems a little unfair.
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Postby Nennie » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:11 pm

I voted needs tuning but was at work so couldn't really type something up then.

I'm just on the fence about it.

Right now it's working on whoever helps the most is going to get the help. I don't think that is bad. If you go out of your way to help someone, 9 times out of 10 they will be there for you.

And also what is really inspiring people to help if you can purchase it? Normally people see it also as a way to help ensure they will get help in the future. You already award DKP for these hits. So nothing is changing besides the questee spending 20dkp for one fight. And you're even doing them on off nights it sounds like. So if the person who "bought" the fight never helps anyone, I would still be willing to bet someone isn't going to go help them, and they might not get the raid force required.

I am definately leaning more towards no. Raids are for fun and dkp for gear. To have to pay your guild to come out to help on an epic hit isn't what I feel a good aspect of a family guild is. If we are all willing to go help someone we will burn through epics like no tomorrow, especially after we fight each fight a few times. I say punish the ones not willing to help others, and not let them buy their epic while the same 10-15 people who always go to epic hits go. A what goes around comes around aspect.

Part of me that is leaning towards yes will offer some sugestions...

20DKP is a lot. Like someone said above, some epics require several raids while some don't. I think that value needs to come down. I would rather save up for several upgrades than spend posibly 120 DKP on an epic weapon that I think a guild is supposed to help out with regardless.

I can't think of a solution but maybe making a few nights a month of regular raid days "Epic days." Regular to me is tuesdays and thursday when we get a big turn out, cause some of these raids needed for some classes won't cut it with 18-20 people showing up on a saturday or even less on an off day.

I know other guilds do it because they requre raiding. The member is required to be at this planned epic hit because they have a percentage they must maintain or they get booted from the guild. That's how a lot of guilds have like 80% of them epiced. In a non-raiding required guild I just feel that if people don't want to go to an epic hit, they aren't going to go with no penalty besides missing out on 1 or 2 dkp. Not saying we should become a raiding required guild, just don't see how it will work. All we'd be doing is charging members for a raid that might not even show up if they dont want to or feel that person doesnt deserve it.

I don't feel it's bad how it's working now. I feel maybe if the person sets up the event themselves on an off day, post it, and got officer approval, let it happen. Tear posted a hit that she needed. If she would have just posted a day she would have wanted I don't see any problem with that. And officer approved so the attending will get dkp, and she'll get her epic piece for taking the inititive to start it, run it, and see it through.Epic progression is a personal aspect of the character, and if the character doesn't care enough to set things up themselves, or help others so support will go their way, then no epic for them and they shouldnt be able to buy the support they should earn.

So if I could I would change my answer to no. Guess I just had to think through it now and get it all out.

Sorry it was long and drawn out, just stating my opinion on the matter :)

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Postby Worff » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:19 pm

Yeah it was because it was a "pickup" for the most part. What Dran is talking about is a guild-sanctioned raid that would probably be scheduled or filled in on a night our planned targets aren't available, etc.

What if the quester doesn't have 20DKP ?
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Postby Madokvaur » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:31 pm

I am with Morbi and Nennie, could not have set it better. We are a family guild that raids (think I saw that somewhere). I also joined TF cause of the family background, but also DKP system for loot. I personally enjoy being part of the Epic hits for peeps, if you could see into that persons eyes when they complete an EPIC and be part of that moment is priceless. I think Epic hits are to be more of the family side of TF and members helping members. I thought the Saturday night sign-up thing was/is great. I usually can play Saturday nights, so I'll be there for any1 who needs. This way peeps are earning DKP as well becuase it is planned as a TF event (little incentive never hurts to help out), but think it is wrong to charge the person to get their EPIC.
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Postby Bilnick » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:43 pm

I voted no, because I don't think that DKP should be charged for a raid request.

But, having some checks and balances for requesting a raid is not out of line in my opinion.

Use Tearrin as an example. Here is someone who goes on a decent amount of raids (40-50% consistently), has been in the guild for a few months, and has attended others quest hits. Approving and running a raid for Tearrin is a no brainer.

On the other hand, if a brand new member starts asking for epic 1.5 raids right away, would everyone be that enthusiastic about helping? Should they be on equal footing with the person who has helped countless guildies with quest hits? I personally like to help those willing to help others first before even asking for help themself.

I would say that someone should be in TF for a minimum amount of time before requesting a guild run hit (2 months maybe?). The requester should also show that they are willing to help others by showing up at a minimum number of other people's hits. The same person should not get raids run for them without a minimum amount of time between hits, so others could get thier hits in.

All this being said, people figure out quickly who gives and who takes, and apply thier own standards to who they will or will not help. So maybe nothing is required.

PS. If I remember correctly Deth, you asked for a few people's help to plow to that mob in PoN. A dozen or so people came out and we beat it easily. We helped out because we wanted to. That was not really a raid event. One group could have beat that if they wanted to.
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Postby saiari » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:12 pm

I voted needs tuning because.....i think 20 dkp is an awful lot for some peeps (these peeps being the peeps that are ALWAYS there to help out) I think there should be some kind of benefit to peeps say that help out on 20 different epic hits and have never requested a hit. So in turn what this policy is stating is that for 20 dkp and 3 other hits the person gets their have people like me that aren't working on epic 1.5 atm that shows up to all these hits and will still be charged the 20 dkp somewhere down the road if i ever decide to do it. I feel it needs a little twinking on both sides.
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