Droppable loot reserved for usables or not?

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Droppable loot FFA for bidding regardless of class?

yup
19
54%
nope
16
46%
 
Total votes : 35

yes/no

Postby Lemme » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:51 pm

I was going to vote no at first, but then thinking about it, I decided to vote yes. However I couldnt find either the yes or the no option on the poll.

I would really like to vote no, because I really want people to only bid on something if it is an upgrade for them. If it is not an upgrade for them, then pass and open it up to everyone. I have wondered about some loot items (as to whether they were really an upgrade, or going to be sold), but tried not to think about it too much.

Criploc makes some good points about NBG. Cant say I ever really like NBG myself.

Guess I will vote yes. If it is preceived that people are just bidding on an item to sell it, then I think it is fair to let everyone bid on the item. Seems opening things up to everyone takes all of the questions out of the process.

OT, is a BOC really that good for agro? Arent two one handers more agro than one one hander? And you can put atleast twice as many augs on two two handers, right?

Edit....oops, my mistake, meant blade of war, not blade of carnage.
Last edited by Lemme on Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ForsakerTrull » Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:16 pm

For right now I would have to vote no on this, simply being that, be the person a casual or full time raider "if" an item is an upgrade for them and they're on the raid, I feel that they should be given the chance to bid on the item first as an upgrade item. From there if there's no interest then by all means open it up as a general twink/sellable loot and everyone can bid if they want. How you determine the item is an upgrade, I really dont have too many suggestions beyond the hope that everyone is at least honest enough to bid on items they are going to use as an upgrade ex: ornate molds. For the people that just want to sell the item for the platt and rob your guildies of upgrades i have the same low opinion for you as i do for the people that bump dkp bids to make others spend more.

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Postby Serano » Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:23 pm

OT, is a BOC really that good for agro? Arent two one handers more agro than one one hander? And you can put atleast twice as many augs on two two handers, right?


BOC is a one hander. BoW is a 2 hander. each drops from AoW and RTZW respectivly.

and you can put twice as many augs in 2 one handers than you can in one 2 hander unless one is a DoN / LDON purchased 1 hander or 2 hander. I don't know of any dropped loot with two aug slots in it.
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Postby Criploc » Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:45 pm

ForsakerTrull wrote:For the people that just want to sell the item for the platt and rob your guildies of upgrades i have the same low opinion for you as i do for the people that bump dkp bids to make others spend more.




I dont think that selling for plat is robbing anyone of upgrades, if you're turning around and using that plat to buy something that will upgrade yourself. Its DKP that you have earned fairly and should be able to spend it to go towards upgrading yourself. To make someone who has put in the time feel guilty about spending their DKP is wrong.
Maybe im just screwed up in the head, but what is the difference between playerA using the item as an upgrade and playerB selling the item and using the plat to buy an upgrade?


btw - i save my dkp and wait for the rights drops that would benefit me the most, so its not like i just bid to be bidding. But regardless, a player should be able to spend his/her dkp and sell item to help them buy an item that they otherwise wouldnt have chance to get.
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Postby Criploc » Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:52 pm

Serano wrote:
OT, is a BOC really that good for agro? Arent two one handers more agro than one one hander? And you can put atleast twice as many augs on two two handers, right?


BOC is a one hander. BoW is a 2 hander. each drops from AoW and RTZW respectivly.

and you can put twice as many augs in 2 one handers than you can in one 2 hander unless one is a DoN / LDON purchased 1 hander or 2 hander. I don't know of any dropped loot with two aug slots in it.





The difference between the BoW(1-aug slot) and using 2 two-handers(2-aug slots) is the repostles from these higher level mobs. The nice BoW is popular to help cut down on those repostles when tanking names.
Alot of times when i have to tankmez a mob that hasnt been slowed yet and im taking a beating, you might see me switch to my 2hander. its basically to cut back on repostles.
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Postby saiari » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:27 pm

Here is a couple questions I have.
1. Would it be opened to able users first? If it is an upgrade?
2. Where would this bidding take place? (if DURING raid thats gonna take a hella long time if you have many classes bidding on an item)
I voted yes because i think it would be fair for someone else to have if the needed class didnt need it. Hell I would bid on something for one of my alts ONLY if it wasnt an upgrade for someone else. And true you can't PROVE this, most of the time I post what I'm replacing with the items I win. I guess I'm just honest like that.
Anyways I'm sure all you O's will make a GRAND decision and we will all have to live with the pro's and con's!! :banana :banana
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Postby Serano » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:32 pm

our current system allows for only usables bidding first. what is proposed is that there wouldn't be two rounds of bidding. Just one - uables and unusables bidding together.

when? typically all droppable loot is bid on when the next no drop loot on a boss is being bid on. depending on the safty of that area.
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Heh

Postby bill » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:45 pm

The ever-revolving background noise of guilds in EQ:

I guess I'm just honest like that.


There is this 2-way assumption that we are being honest with the best intentions for the guild. At the same time, its bad form for the officers to not trust their members.

However, the way I see it is like this:

We are trying to prevent future exploitation.

We aren't saying that anyone is being untrustworthy and everyone is using our DKP policies as they are written. Are those policies perfect? Not yet, hence this thread.

As we change, all aspects will change with us. Some more than others.
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Postby Torizzt Darkwolf » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:03 pm

I do have a small question...if you open all droppable loot to any and all classes to bid on and tell the casual raiders ( which TF is supposed to be about not a raiding guild ) that they suddenly have to bid against everyone in the guild including the peps that raid alot and have alot of points ...arent you basically telling the casual raiders that it isnt worth them coming out to help the guild raid anymore because it just got even harder for them to get any upgrades ?

I mean really I thought this has been argued so many times and agreed that TF is NOT a RAIDING guild but a FAMILY guild that raids ?

Telling the casual raider that he/she has to bid against everyone in the guild on a droppable loot ( ornate molds ) ...for example Eamile ..she is a cleric and does attend raids casual....do you want to tell her to stop attending raids cause the few points she has earned wont help her get an upgrades ? I wasnt aware that TF was about ME it was about the FAMILY.

Lets be serious I feel changing the loot is like telling all the casual peeople to either stop raiding when they can or flat out leave the guild.I want everyone in the guild to be able to help the guild when they can and when they want to and not be told you can help but there is no way you will get much for it except helping the RAIDING people get more for them.We are supposed to be about TF and FAMILY and helping everyone in the guild.

Yes a droppable loot can be sold so you can buy a aug or something to upgrade yourself.This does help you and help the guild by you being better on your next raid but what about when we hit some mob and we need 70 people to attend and they go well the RAIDING 30-40 people are the only ones that are going to get any loot ? why would they want to come help ? Besides you can do exactly what Criploc did to buy his helmet , do exp groups and get loot to sell.

There are definately pros and cons for both sides but lets not forget that everyone in the guild is supposed to be equal and afforded the same oppertunities to advance and gain from being a member of TF not an outsider in the guild thinking should I leave like so many others have left so TF has to rebuild their numbers again ?

Im probably ranting at some point here but I voted no and Ive stated how feel so let everyone take any of this and hopefully think it over.I allways back the officers and hope they are doing whats best for TF and they will make their decision based on what they feel is best for us.So these are my thoughts.

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Postby bill » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:28 pm

TF is NOT a RAIDING guild but a FAMILY guild that raids ?


Labels are the devil. Let me clarify some terms for everyone:

Raiding guild: requires raiding, mandatory attendance, must raid if online, raid everyday.

TF: Does not require raiding, attendance not mandatory, don't have to raid if online, raid with 1% attendance and still be eligible for loot if you wish.

TF != Raiding guild.

TF promotes a family atmosphere while still raiding effectively

TF != a family guild.

THIS, however, is from the first line of the guild's description:

Tribal Fury is a guild
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Postby Serano » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:49 pm

I don't see this as a casual vs regular raiding issue.

Lets be serious I feel changing the loot is like telling all the casual peeople to either stop raiding when they can or flat out leave the guild.


If a casual wastes his DKP on a droppable low quality loot instead of on a higher quality loot that is a no drop upgrade his folly.

Actually this seems like it would actually HELP the lower addendance raiders in that the higher attendance raiders are encouraged to waste their DKP on droppable loot and would lower the amount of things they would loot up that are utility items that are an honest upgrade for peeps.


This does help you and help the guild by you being better on your next raid but what about when we hit some mob and we need 70 people to attend and they go well the RAIDING 30-40 people are the only ones that are going to get any loot ? why would they want to come help ?


Ahhh I didn't realize that the casual raider was only there for the loot. I thought they wanted to be in a guild that gave them an opportunity that few other guilds offer - the chance to raid when they feel like it on content that no other guild I know of offers casual raiders regular opportunity to raid against. Oh - and for groups and quest assistance as well.

I would like to point to the armplates that Irishhealer looted on a VT plow. 6 points. look up that item. it went for 6 points. hardly a circumstance where a casual raider can't buy something cheap on a raid.

Look at Forsakers Shield 1 point. and he is a regular raider. lets not assume that only high DKP point totals will get you quality loot.
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heh

Postby bill » Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:07 pm

Almost like the rich get richer and the poor stay poor



Well, the rich (read-those who raid more often and put more time to help the guild advance while not looting upgrades) do in fact trade their earned DKP for conceptual platinum (read-a liquid avenue for upgrading) and mostly maintain a constant state of wealth where DKP converts to platinum.

As for the poor staying poorer. If the poor (read-those that raid less often due to any reasons) don't bid on anything but important upgrades, then they will accumulate DKP while the supposed rich spend their DKP on platinum from items which are not big upgrades.
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Postby Brikksx » Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:45 pm

Can someone hug me?




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Postby Madokvaur » Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:12 pm

I am not sure why you say you can't prove that the item is an upgrade. The person bidding can just link the item they presently have to the loot officer to prove it. I don't think many peeps walk around with bags of low grade equipment just to link to fake out the guild/officer to get a non-upgrade to sell later. Just say JEEZZ, it is not that hard.

Here is a worst case scenario for what you propose.

Say one day we are in Plane of Hate going to kill Inny (I think one of them live there) and we happen across one of the mini's in tier 1 and he drops the Shattered emerald of corruption. Me as a ranger (last piece for ranger epic 1.0) says woot, I will bid on that. X member (non-ranger or ranger who already has) says wow, I can MQ that for mega plat $$$$. X member with over 200DKP and me with 40 gets out bid. Do you really think that is fair? and don't say that won't ever happen, because you would be wrong.
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Postby Bilnick » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:07 pm

SEoC is a no drop item, only usable classes would bid.
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