Droppable loot reserved for usables or not?

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Droppable loot FFA for bidding regardless of class?

yup
19
54%
nope
16
46%
 
Total votes : 35

Droppable loot reserved for usables or not?

Postby Serano » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:37 pm

Should droppable loot be able to be bid on by any class or only by usable classes first and then if now one wants to bid, it becomes open bidding for any class?

Voting no means that the person has to be able to *USE* the item. This definition will be affected by the other poll currently posted regarding level restrictions.

Voting yes means that there will be open bidding on any piece of droppable loot by any class.

Essentially - we have come to a point where it can occur that a peep is only bidding on a droppable loot because their class allows them to bid even tho they themselves have no use to it - in order to make a profit. Thus - with the quality of the drop loot we ussually get vs what most players are wearing - is it time to open up all droppable loot to all classes as soon as the loot is bid on?

BTW - the officers have brought this up in officer forums lots of times and has been a hot issue - we are not "deadlocked" we want to make sure of the pulse of the guild on this issue is accurate in case our discussion and points of view are not reflective of the guild.
Last edited by Serano on Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Serano » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:13 am

with over 20 votes - I am surprised there is NO discussion on this topic. Interesting the disinterest.
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heh

Postby bill » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:31 am

Well..

disinterest.


would indicate no votes wouldn't it? :banana
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Postby saiari » Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:04 am

Why would someone have to post a discussion if they have already voted? Seems it would be like double charting?
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Postby Serano » Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:08 am

oh they don't have to - but similar vote issues have sparked lots of lobbying from those that like their PoV.
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Postby Madokvaur » Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:30 am

OK i'll bite

I am in the NO camp. I thought TF was about family and need b4 greed. It seems to me if you open it up to every1 there could be a lot of greed going on. I think it would be really crappy if someone who is a casual raider (like most of us are i think) and only had a few raid points for a nice upgrade for them, only to be outbid from one of the harder core raiders with lots of DKP just to sell for plat. Not sure how that really helps the guild in the long run. Almost like the rich get richer and the poor stay poor /shrug.

Just MHO of course
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Postby Madokvaur » Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:33 am

I should clarify. I believe the item must be an UPGRADE for the class who is bidding first..If it is not an upgrade then YES open it up for all.
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Postby Bilnick » Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:55 am

I voted yes. Most of the loot that is droppable is worth very little anyway. There are only a few loots that I can think of from mobs that we have hit that have valuable loot. Blade of Carnage of of the Avatar of War. Amulet of Necropotence off of Cazic Thule. The Attunable stuff with approx 100 hp that spawns from chests on epic hits. Ornate molds.

My thought is why let only a Warrior, Pally or SK bid on a BoC? Most of our warriors have better, and if a warrior did win on it he may be better served selling it, buying DoN crystals and augmenting a better weapon with a hate proc aug anyway (thanks drannor) and still have a few k left over for himself/herself. Why shouldn't a mage be allowed to win a BoC, sell it and buy some gear for themself?

Goofy argued this point 6-8 months ago, and I disagreed with him then, but that was also the days before tradeable DoN crystals, and we were hitting lesser content.
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heh

Postby bill » Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:58 am

And this brings to light basically the entire ball of wax.

a casual raider (like most of us are i think) and only had a few raid points for a nice upgrade for them, only to be outbid from one of the harder core raiders with lots of DKP just to sell for plat.


Try to be objective when you read what I am about to say. Imagine you've been in a guild for at least 12 months. You've seen ppl join the guild with less than you, gear up to about equal because you let them get gear that was a bigger upgrade to them versus a tiny one for yourself.

You've watched those ppl leave the guild and new ones join the ranks.

Now you watch those 2nd generation peeps with their weaker gear...you pass the tiny upgrades to them which are big upgrades.

Then by the time 12 months hit, yet another generation of ppl leave the guild.

So, now your gear looks like what after 12 months?

Which brings me to the EVEN BIGGER picture with this next thought:

Not sure how that really helps the guild in the long run.


Ponder this for a moment. If we retain say 1/3 of the ppl over the course of 12 months, how much *did* we help the guild?

Now consider the concept that those ppl with DKP, *earned* that DKP by raiding and not looting. That platinum is more often spent on upgrades than traded for US$ to blow on hookers (since I have a girlfriend now).

Almost like the rich get richer and the poor stay poor


Well, the rich (read-those who raid more often and put more time to help the guild advance while not looting upgrades) do in fact trade their earned DKP for conceptual platinum (read-a liquid avenue for upgrading) and mostly maintain a constant state of wealth where DKP converts to platinum.

As for the poor staying poorer. If the poor (read-those that raid less often due to any reasons) don't bid on anything but important upgrades, then they will accumulate DKP while the supposed rich spend their DKP on platinum from items which are not big upgrades.

Thoughts on this?
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Postby Teennin » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:00 pm

This is one of those touchy topics which i can argue both ways which is why i havent posted here.

Mad for the most part i agree with what you are saying but what if you were to bid on that ornate plate mold so you could sell it? Then the pp you get for it is put twords upgrades you want to buy? Those kick ass augs cost a lot of money in the bazaar. I remember goofy arguing about this for a long time.

In the end i see this topic being like our "Raid" time topic
If you make a decision one way some people will be upset its a no win situation
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Postby Serano » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:01 pm

Mad what you say is the way our policy currently is. but we have noted that there are some peeps - bidding within the rules for an item but it really isn't for them.

For instance when we took down The Avatar of War - we had 2 warriors there. two warrior helmet only droppable helms droped. Well per our policy both of the warriors could essentially have them for free. or 1 point depending on the loot nazi for the night.

well Criploc already had one so Waystin got one for free. The remaining one was DKPed as a bid if you want to blow DKP for an alt or to sell. Which is the way it is currently written. HOWEVER - say that Criploc and Waystin BOTH had BETTER helms and did not currently have the helmet of Rallos zek. They would both walk away with an item that sells for 100k? (is this about right - just throwing it out there). for free. Or for 1 DKP. is that really need before greed? Our DKP policy states - that we encourage the spirit of NBG but ultimatly it is up to the individual what to do with their points.

rewind WAY back.. There is ONE dragon in NTOV that drops a lot of Droppable Loot that is highly valued - 100hp items with no min level. However - who is to say whoever bid on those drops really wanted them for an upgrade vs - hey it is going for CHeap DKP and I am on the usable loot list so I can buy it and sell for phat plat and buy upgrades, twink an alt, sell for real cash, etc.

So on the basis of usable classes some classes if they are out for the buck vs the "spirit of NBG" can make a buck well within the rules of our DKP. When peeps bid for something in DKP there is no link your item or you can't bid thing to consider if it is a verified upgrade. They are ultimatly as the DKP rules say "yours to spend as you see fit."

So by opening up droppables to ALL classes ultimatly it 1) removes the guilt check, and allows other classes to waste DKP on something they are going to sell, twink or whatever.

Fast foward to today. on pop raids (think Carprin loot, Bert min kings, ornate patterns, HOH droppables) most of the loot is mostly crap that is NOT an upgrade for the usables. but they have a corner in bidding on it first currently. So by virtue of being a ranger, Serano could bid 1 DKP on a ranger only droppable and then sell it when maybe someone else coulda used the cash from selling it to get an upgrade from the bazaar - and hell they earned the DKP.

essentially this is proposing the option of making all Droppable loot considered ALL / ALL for the purposes of getting rid of it.

Arguably some ornate patterns should stay usable only but who really knows if the peep that is bidding is gonna use itor sell it? And if there are no DKP police in this guild (nor should there be) no one is tracking if 2 days later the person that bid on an ornate BP patern really did the turn in and is now wearing it.

So - while if someone needs the upgrade and it is droppable- nothing will prevent the person from "claiming" in their bid that is an upgrade

/rsay bids now in /gu for the droppable Loin cloth of disease

Drannor tells the guild 1
Serano tells the guild 2 (upgrade)
Drannor tells the guild out.

shrug.
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Madok

Postby bill » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:06 pm

One other thing I wanted to highlight that was mentioned:

I believe the item must be an UPGRADE for the class who is bidding first..If it is not an upgrade then YES open it up for all.


There is no method to check whether an item(s) is in FACT an upgrade much like we can't prove you have your VT key done until we see you in VT.

This method of DKP allows us to stop bullshit in its tracks as they mention it at the mage forums in a recent thread about DKP systems.

What Bilnick mentioned above regarding the BoC and using DoN crystals was an example I wrote in the officer forums detailing the conversion.

A BoC can fetch what, let's say 150k. I bought an augment that had the same proc that makes the BoC so powerful and the crystals to buy that augment ran me about 45k total.

That would leave a person with another 105k to spend on upgrades.

I know which I would rather have hehe.
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Postby Madokvaur » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:23 pm

Teennin wrote:This is one of those touchy topics which i can argue both ways which is why i havent posted here.


I agree. There are pros and cons for both here and definatley are opinions for both. Seems like Bill and Serano are obviously in the YES camp. I would like to hear the point of views from some of the officers in the NO camp. Serano and Bill you state very good points, thank you.

Whatever decision is made here, I will support that decision and know that the officers looked at the pros and cons and made the decision that is best for TRIBAL FURY. :thumbup and :guitar :rockout3:
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Postby Criploc » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:31 pm

I dont believe in nor have any interest in this NBG crap at this level and/or stage of game- There are plenty of No Drop items that players will be able to bid on that many others will not bid on.
But when it comes to droppable items at this level of the game, the gear/weapons could help upgrade ANYONE and EVERYONE regardless if useable or an upgarde. If its an upgrade for you, thats great. If its not an upgrade for you nor is it an useable item, then it could be sold to help you buy something that IS an upgrade for you. So you see, ALL highly vaulable droppable items could be useful or NEEDY for ANYONE regardless if useable or not, regardless if an upgrade or not.

What? players who have very good gear is suppose to raid all the time and have to sit on their DKP raid after raid after raid after raid and not bid on a droppable item becuase its not an upgrade, but is an upgrade for joe blow that raids once every 2 weeks? So instead the nitely raiders have to step aside for those who only raid when something may benefit them? If you raid often enough and put in your time then you shouldnt have too much problems competing bidding on most items.

I say ALL droppable gear can help upgrade ANYONE, period. The hell with NBG. Just because you cant wear it or because its not an upgrade doesnt mean it couldnt go towards helping you upgrade yourself through selling then buying something you need.

Get this NBG crap out of your system, thats so old pre-50's and pre-2003 for any high level guilds.


~~ this message has been brought to you by Criploc enterprises. Now back to your regular scheduled programming.
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Postby Criploc » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:48 pm

Serano wrote:
For instance when we took down The Avatar of War - we had 2 warriors there. two warrior helmet only droppable helms droped. Well per our policy both of the warriors could essentially have them for free. or 1 point depending on the loot nazi for the night.

well Criploc already had one so Waystin got one for free.



Yes Criploc already had one. Do you know how Criploc already had one? Well Criploc had to save up his plat. Criploc had to have items to sell to save up his plat. Criploc paid 240k like 2 years ago. Criploc couldnt get donations for Kei or focus or virtue or ports. Criploc had to earn it the old fashion way since Criploc never belonged to a guild capable of taking down AoW until recently. How was Criploc able to save up his plat to buy a upgradable head slot? By staying away from these NBG groups and selling a casters robe, a Sk's 2hander, a rogues piercer, a monks h2h weapon. You get the picture? :banana :banana :banana

btw - although criploc already had a AoW helmet, dont you think that if Criploc had bid on that helmet regardless, that that helmet would have helped upgrade Criploc nonetheless? It could have helped buy him some augs or perhaps those ebon crystals, etc etc.
Last edited by Criploc on Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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