Restricted biddig on a BoW

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Moderator: Officers

Restrict BoW bidding to warriors only?

Total votes : 42

Postby chawpchawp » Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:22 pm

the only thing i can compare it to, is warriors not going for really nice ratio 2handers without agro procs. There are a lot of them out there, and as we continue to farm emp and seru, as well as moving towards EP i'm sure a lot of them will drop. I for one would NEVER try to get one of those weapons over a pally/sk hell ever berserker, because i know it will be used more by them. In this instance, this is essentially the ONLY weapon that is an upgrade to a 2hander for reduced ripostes that a war can feasably tank with in major raid situations that we will see for quite some time. Until we can get Dark Blade of the Warlord, this would be the ONLY weapon that most of our warriors would use in tanking major raid mobs. When put in that light, is it of comparable use/security for any other class? I don't think so, but then that is only my opinion.
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Postby Serano » Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:01 am

You guys really ought to read the DKP policy more than just once.

1) Raid Point System
a) The Tribal Fury Raid Point System has been designed to award players who raid in order to ultimately build overall raid effectiveness while embodying the spirit of Need Before Greed.

The system is a tool to encourage people to bid on what they need. the question Jahras raises here - is who needs an Enraging blow weapon? We would hope that the right peeps bid on the right items.

4) Loot
a) DKP Raids: The Loot Officer has total authority over all Raid Loot as outlined in this policy, and is responsible for administering this policy.

please explain what part of TOTAL AUTHORITY over all raid loot is not clear. The loot officer says - warriors only - by virtue of what we have in print - the raid loot officer can do it. HOWever - that said, Now - are we gonna do this? mebe - mebe not. we have some strong opinions from a few peeps saying "bad mooove officers " - and we pay attention to that. The officers are split on it which is why it is here.

Now - I have never TOLD a person - flatly - YOU MAY NOT BID on x item vs that player - but I have questioned peeps - is bidding on this item for your tune in the best interests of the guild at this point? And I send these tells to peeps a lot. some peeps take it into account and drop - others want the item and continue to bid - and - as our policy says - they are your points to spend as you see fit - we value your ability to judge what is good for the guild and you.
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Postby Angyish » Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:19 am

i skipped pages one and two.

BoW is a good agro weapon, no matter the class. tempting for angy, i mean agro whoring for the win.
i voted no. becuase thats DKP you buy your gear. and you pay as much as you want depending on how bad you want it. ie me and bil paid 71 and 75 for emp shield the next night vikk got it for 10? there you go we wanted it that much more.

the only situation where tanking a boss would come into play is say inc named boss equip 2h rage disc for extreme riposte damage and agro and bandolier it out when disc runs out.

otherwise just let people buy their gear. lets not over anazlyze the crap outa this. i mean when we hit time and our rangers buy VDD's and gank agro from tanks and yes this does happen, i mean are we gonna say can ranger bid on this item becuase of the agro? hells no.

just let people build their toons with the dkp they earned. its that easy. i bet we'll hit rallos more then once and get more then one.

also i'd love to see bloodeye with one of these bad boys. our tanking zerker. would the the absolute shit!
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Postby Brikksx » Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:46 am

Mosrael wrote:It is extremely selfish of anyone who would take this weapon away from a warrior. If you crusaders for "fairness" can't see that, you are blinded by greed.

The only way this guild will progress is if we put ourselves second and the guild first for once, on ONE item. It saddens me that some of us cannot do this.

Selfish, Greedy, not a team player!!!

If you are saying this about me, then that could not be further from the truth!! Since i have been in TF i have been 100% team! I have been to almost every raid since joining and have yet to bid on one item! I have passed up loot for others so they could get upgrades, where it would just be a decent item for me! I have helped and helped and helped and my EXP bar shows that!

And yes this might be one item but we will have to do this for every warrior in TF or it will not be right! Do you stop there? What are you gonna do for the Bards, Enchanters, Shamans, Pally's, ect ect..

DKP is set up to be fair to all members on raids. If you ask me why not just make a raid saying we are killing RZTW for so and so a BOW(Kinda like a quest mob)? But making and optional raid in raid section and asking anyone to kill RZTW for progression and not let anyone but the said warrior have a chance at the loot is insane!

Yes i want the guild to grow and grow.. but calling people selfish and greedy, will never make that happen! Loot is the #1 reason why guild fall or fail.

All i ask is that we make one policy and stick to it, no matter what it is.

Last edited by Brikksx on Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby quaanshaman » Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:23 am

I would hate to see anyone who has earned DKP, not be able to spend them on an upgrade for their character. If warriors having a BoW is so darn important to the success of the guild, then I would hope the officers could see that and make sure we kill Rallos Zek enough times until some of our warriors can win it in bidding. Just the way I feel.

Maybe a compromise is in order? First 2 times we get a BoW officers request Warrior bids only, after that make it open to all who want to bid. Hmm just throwing out ideas. Any way you look at it the bidding will be fierce and you better have DKP saved up... especially if you want to be the first person in TF to own uber_weapon_01

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Postby Goofydoofy » Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:38 am

I find it distrurbing that a loot officer can, at anytime, now do anything that person wants anytime in a raid without stating those intentions prior to the start of the raid. Not saying the officers shouldn't be able to figure out what is right, but giving somebody that much authority across the board with nobody to answer to is very distrubing indeed. The first time this is used, the shit is going to hit the fan. I can't understand why the policy was changed when there was actual notification and limitations to this so called authority.
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Postby Zyzzerzazz » Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:56 am

I would hope the officers could see that and make sure we kill Rallos Zek enough times until some of our warriors can win it in bidding.

Maybe a compromise is in order? First 2 times we get a BoW officers request Warrior bids only, after that make it open to all who want to bid.

Quaan for the win? /nod
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Postby Conan » Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:02 am

If they didn't have that authority you'd have barely contained chaos. Thats why the military gets things done--yeah I can say "sir I think theres a better way" but if disagrees and tells me to stfu and I say aye aye sir. Someone has to have ultimate control in the end to make the decisions "steer the canoe" because everyone will never totally agree. Thats why we're a half assed cluster fuck as it is. For gods sake we can't even keep people out of rsay because we're afraid of hurting their feelings :( because some people think that you should be able to do whatever the hell you want that will make you happy because we're a "family" guild. I'm willing to bet in the more advanced guild(and I'm sure this isn't 100% so go ahead and pull out your "examples" to make your arguement) they don't have as many people talking back and arguing at every turn. You want to give this thing to a ranger go ahead everyone will be happy we can hug and the when we hit a 3k riposte mob we can circle around waystins corpse hugging. Fucking whiney ass people. BTW I see mana regen 5 thats class all race all thats an upgrade for me statwise I'm not gonna care because hey we're using DKP right its MY choice jesus?
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Postby konakor » Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:16 am

Thanks for the vote of confidence Angy, but no thanks. I would never bid against a tank class for this item, i find it in poor taste and detrimental to what we are trying to accomplish as a whole. I voted no, not because i can use it, but because i think that our members can decide for themselves when they should hold off bidding to let an item go to someone who could get the most use from it. Personally, i would love to have one of these for exp groups, but I dont realistically see that happening, due to the fact that our raid tanks having them is way more important than my gimp ass trying to tank with one. Besides, i do alot more damage when someone else is taking the hits. :thumbup
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Postby Serano » Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:19 am

This policy has been in effect since Last Summer - it was written as stands after the last time this debate came up specifically to STOP a raid leader from saying that - X drop was going to be for only Y classes. It was implemented to prevent the raid leader from having anything to do with deciding which loot went to who (with the exception of quest specific hits). Since that time goofy - you left the guild and rejoined. If you don't like the words in the DKP policy sorry. You agreed to them.

That said - I dig the discussion. This is pretty much the way it went the last time we talked about it

The other thread about the BP which inspired the re-write in the first place is gone but the original raid thread is still in archives

YOu can read where We take the right to GOd loot or loot condition AWAY from the raid leader and give it soley to the officers. When reading MY OWN comments - I see that we inadvertantly wrote in more power to the loot officer than we intended. AS written Loot officer having TOTAL authority over all loot - is prolly not what we intended.

I believe what we (I) intended to write in there was that the loot officer would have full RESPONSIBILITY to handle the loots. And the authority is per our published DKP. which - currently, since that fateful raid thread created our current policy, stands - where if you earned thepoints you can spend them. There is one change since then tho - you have to have earned the points on THAT TOON.
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Postby Lemme » Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:23 am

DKP for the win.

Sure, its just one item now, but what is next? Its even more unfair that its just the one item. Anything with a backstab mod is rogue only. Anything with singing mod is bard only. Anything with harm touch mod is sk only. You earned you dkp by helping out the guild, spend it on what you want.

No, maybe none of our wariors and going to retire next week. Whats to say that the dont have an accident? New girlfriend that only has off Tues and Thurs nights. Lose thier job and cant afford to play EQ? How bad are we going to feel if we give it to X war and they then cant play for whatever reason? DKP is a reward for past action, if I bid on something and then deguild, atleast you can look back and say hey, he helped the guild out alot (accumulated those dkp) and he took his earned reward (item fairly bid on).

So warriors dont have to competively bid on their weapon. That then leaves them with more dkp, and now they have an unfair advantage when that piece of armor drops and everyone is bidding on it because we havent restricted it to everyone but war.

If I bid on it and won, I would use it all the time (til I got an upgrade). Would a warrior? So does it benefit the guild more in my hands, or in a war's? Lets let dkp make that decision, isnt that why we are a dkp guild?
Dont know if I would bid on it or not. Probably would bid on it if it was going for 5dkp. If two wars were fighting it out and the bid was up to 100 dkp I probably wouldnt bid on it.
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Postby bill » Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:27 am

Plz, for the love of baby jesus, listen to brikksx. I can't post on this thread anymore because he said everything i could have said and better.

...Why can't you see that this is one item?

Reread brikksx last post before mine. plz.
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Postby arielyn » Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:46 am

interesting discussion.

I don't see this as going through, due to the severe 50/50 dividing on it. So how bout this guys. Use discression. It is obvious to me, that yes this weapon would be beneficial to a warrior. But think also how often Angyish / forsaker / Brix / Bilnick / ect tanks too. There are quite a few times where our non warrior tanks have tanked big mobs, and this weapon could benefit them as well.

I agree, i would love to see this ideally go to one of our Main warriors, however if it goes to one of our pallies or shadowknights, then it will benefit us as well. Its not like we're not gonna have to hit RZ once and be done with it. We will have to hit him a few times.

That being said, everyone also use a little judgement on special items like this. If you are someone who raids once in a while, and maybe have accumlacated some hefty DKP over the years, just think to yourself before you bid, do i Really need this item? I hate the idea of limiting voting, that is why we put in DKP in the first place. From time to time i will send tells to people asking them why they are bidding, when it is obvious that the other class can benefit more / or if its an alt/ main situation, but usually I just let DKP reign. Before you bid on items, especially items such as this, think to your self, do i really need this and does it help my family.

if the answer is yes, then bid away. DKP is just that. Earned points. It amuses me though, that such heated debate is going on about an item we haven't even got yet, nor are 100% sure is gonna drop anyway. And quite honestly, Think about our main tanks in this guild. I'm sure theres gonna be a massive bidding war between them to begin with. That is what makes DKP so effective, people who raid alot get alot of points. people who don't raid alot do not. You seriously think that whether or not we restrict this item, that it will end up going to anyone but one of our top tanks? And if it happens to go to, say, forsaker, over waystin, well then fine. Saker tanks alot too. theres days where we don't have a warrior on, and one of our other plate classes step up. IMO it would be beneficial to any of our raid tanks. but, DKP is there for a reason. And by judging the see-saw that is this topic thus far, i would have to say it will stay the way it is. Anyone who can use this weapon will be allowed to bid on it. But like i also said, use common sence.

Play nice. Have fun. Bid Smart, and Be excellent to each other.

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Postby Adlewiese » Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:24 am

Nice to see there are Brikksx in the world. Be very carefull of pointing fingers folks. Whenever you point one somewhere, there are THREE pointing back at yourself.
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Postby Mosrael » Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:14 am

Oh, you don't think it's just one item? I guess I'm the only person in the guild who trusts Jah to tell us the truth.

Wuupas wrote:Oh and you ask what other items we might try to restrict in the future

Only one I can think of off the top of my head would be Ifir, Dagger of Fire to rogues. But of course that would entail another poll etc, as democratic as we are.

Stop overreacting, stop being so greedy. You know full well this is all about what loot YOU want- if you can't use this item, you think (which the officers have already, completely denied) that we will start restricting items you want.

Oh no, now I can't be uber!

Here's the thing- you WON'T be uber. Want to know why? We can't take EP. We will never see EP loot, and the reason is people like you. People who think everything has to be completely fair all the time. Here's what's fair- endless ssra raiding. Kunark hits. t1 bosses. Have fun with that, it's all we'll ever see if you can't do what's best for the guild.
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