Mod Rods to give Endurance Back for Melees?

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Mod Rods to give Endurance Back for Melees?

Postby bill » Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:37 pm

http://forum.magecompendium.com/viewtopic.php?t=20633

There is a poll posted by the mage class correspondant.

They link a thread on the steel warrior mentioning this if you didn't read about it there.

Go and vote folks.
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Postby Azzenkar Emberune » Fri May 20, 2005 7:04 am

This my fellow mage is gotta be the most evil ill thought out idea SOE, the mage community and anybody else could possibly come up with. Puts us right back in the rod bish slot........as if getting tells from ranjas for mod rods isnt bad enough now we gonna get it from rogues and meatshields too? Give me back the pre nerf rods so i can actually do some good with those things and fine I wont resist this but till then your gonna have to pry that kinda rod out of my cold dead blue inkie mage fingers to get one.

Not in the slightest willing to bend on this issue.


The smithing mage has made a stand...for all the good it will do.
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Postby Azzenkar Emberune » Fri May 20, 2005 7:05 am

This my fellow mage is gotta be the most evil ill thought out idea SOE, the mage community and anybody else could possibly come up with. Puts us right back in the rod bish slot........as if getting tells from ranjas for mod rods isnt bad enough now we gonna get it from rogues and meatshields too? Give me back the pre nerf rods so i can actually do some good with those things and fine I wont resist this but till then your gonna have to pry that kinda rod out of my cold dead blue inkie mage fingers to get one.

Not in the slightest willing to bend on this issue.


The smithing mage has made a stand...for all the good it will do.
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Postby Bilnick » Fri May 20, 2005 7:52 am

Whats endurance? Is that that yellow bar I never pay any attention to?
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Postby Whazy » Fri May 20, 2005 7:52 am

Bilnick wrote:Whats endurance? Is that that yellow bar I never pay any attention to?


exactly
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Postby konakor » Fri May 20, 2005 8:23 am

for those of us with no blue bar, endurance is what allows us to sustain a level of dps to be effective, at least in my case. every raid i get at least 2 mass rods, you cast em anyway, whats the big deal about adding some melee utility to them. I dont understand why any class would want to deny another class of something that could benefit everyone. Not many casters dont get asked for buffs, it comes with the territory.
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Postby Whazy » Fri May 20, 2005 8:50 am

Magicians have an issue with this for a couple of reasons.

First, casters were told that to balance the effects the melee classes got with the (then) new endurance bar, that there would be no endurance regen spells/effects. (There's no equipment that allows for faster endurance regeneration, and no other class can cast a spell to help melees regain endurance faster.)

Second, when the Mod Rods were first introduced, mages were reduced to mod rod summoners, instead of DPS machines. Mod Rods take a good deal of mana to summon (unless you have the Magi'Kot pants from PoTime) Magicians do not want to go back to being a mod rod pez dispenser on raids. If mod rods are the only way for the melee classes to increase their endurance regeneration, there's a good chance that magicians will be spending a good deal of their mana on raids summoning rods. (The Mod Rod MGB cost 2750 in mana - close to half of my mana pool).

Magicians currently do not offer a lot of utility on raids or in groups by design. Magicians are primarily DPS. I am all for finding new utility for mages, but to be the only class that can help melee classes regen their endurance would not be a good thing for our class, IMHO.
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Postby kullayen » Fri May 20, 2005 8:54 am

One thing to remember is
Caster zero mana = zero dps
Melee zero endurance = dps

Any caster can out dps a melee in a short time, untill mana is gone. Where as Melee can keep going and endurance adds to that dps. I have no idea of parses and such but giving endurance back faster to melee would change the dps of some melee classes greatly. where as mod rods have a neglagable effect on caster dps.
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Postby konakor » Fri May 20, 2005 9:16 am

caster zero mana= zero dps ... that is true for pure casters, but we are talking about mages here, when they run oom they still have a pet to add dps while they med. As far as a high mana cost for casting a raid utility spell, ask a shaman or cleric what percentage of mana is used for casting 7 or HoV. 3600 mana for an mgb of 7, more than that for virt. But the shammies and clerics arent refusing to cast, nor are they complaining about it.
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Postby konakor » Fri May 20, 2005 9:29 am

I also think mages assume that melee will depend on them solely for endurance regen, such is not the case. We regen around 30 endurance per tic while standing (not fighting), and at higher levels we get end. regen AAs, rods would only really be needed at times of full burn, when we are stacking discs. so 1 rod cast at the beginning of the raid would likely last us all nite.
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Postby Morbier » Fri May 20, 2005 10:17 am

Any "good" arguments from mages why they'd be against it ?

Not wanting to be bothered being asked for this probably doen't warrant a terribly good arguement, imo. That is unless you've never asked a caster class yourself for something.
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Postby Serano » Fri May 20, 2005 10:30 am

Or - they could just make ZING do something again. I mean - they had a spell to increase stamina - just make those spells work on ENdurance. Duh.

Either way - MY UI doesn't even show Endurance. So I have no idea what my endurance is at any time. heh. Irrelavent to anyone that odesn't need Defensive.
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Postby Lendaanx » Fri May 20, 2005 11:05 am

Kull while your correct in the a melee with no endurance still does dps you missed one good point though and its primarily the reason the endurance on mod rods came up in the first place. Berserkers are very high on endurance useage the highest of all classes in fact. When I just melee and hit frenzy I hit around 70ish dps atm. Now when I actually use my disc and special abilities that use endurance my dps jumps up to around 130ish.

If I could keep my endurance around 70% I would be running at 130ish dps at all times but I cant due to running out way to fast. SoE won't reduce the cost for our abilities so a few people came up with the idea of adding it to the mod rod to see if that would go thru.
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Postby Whazy » Fri May 20, 2005 11:05 am

If this goes into effect, I'd pass out rods as needed.

Arguements against:

First, SoE stated when the endurance bar was added that there would be no spells to regen endurance faster. This is a class balance issue.

Second, you have to understand how mod rods, when introduced originally, made magicians into rod dispensers. Mages spent a good deal of time and mana summoning rods for other casters, instead of doing DPS. (Originally, there was no reuse timer on the mod rods, so casters, wizards especially, would spend all their mana, then ask for rod after rod to get their mana back, at the expense of the mages.) While this seems trivial now, magicians have spent a long time talking to SoE and convincing them to raise DPS output for magicians, since it is basically our primary function during raids. (CoTH, after Luclin, really becomes useless, as so many zones prohibit its use).

I don't think the issue is that magicians do not want to help melee classes, at least for me, I'd like to do anything I can to help all my guildmates perform better.

Personally, I think if SoE wants to go back on its word and add endurance regen spells, they can do better than just tacking it on to the rods. Also, if SoE does add this endurance regen into the game, they will have to offset it to rebalance the classes somehow. SoE stated that there would be no endurance regen spells for class balance purposes. If they change this, they need to do something else to rebalance casters.

Mostly I see this as a problem magicians have with SoE, not with helping melee classes.

One other thing mages have been asking SoE to change for a long time is increasing pet DPS. It may be a tradeoff that SoE is considering: magicians help melee classes regain endurance faster, in exchange for our pets doing more damage. More endurance for melee classes = more DPS for melee classes. (Melee classes have historically objected to pets doing more DPS, as the melee classes feel it's unfair to have pets doing lots of DPS, while the magician sits safely on his ass far away from the mobs...)

So in short, if SoE changes the mod rods, feel free to ask me for a rod when you need it.
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Postby arielyn » Sat May 21, 2005 10:02 am

or just put me in your group and i'll sing endurance regen.....

its uber. i think its my lvl 1 bard song.

or maybe sony should just up the endurance regen rate of beserkers. they are supposed to be beserk right????
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