DKP

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DKP

Postby Conan » Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:04 pm

I have a concern regarding DKP. In no way do I want to sound greedy or create a flamefest it's just something that I feel should be discussed to ensure everyone is treated fairly. I think the DKP system that is in place is fair and only have one observation. I've seen on two accounts already instances where someone bid on something high then when there was no return bid renigged on the bid and let the next highest person have it. The reason I have a problem with it is that this could allow someone to drive the price up so that competitors drain their DKP. For instance an item drops and i bid 10 another plate class bids 20 I bid 40 trying to make that person use as many points as possible to purchase it so next time my competition will be less. But if my opponent doesn't bid 41 it back fires. So what do I do? I say naw you can have it for 20. This is a bad form. I"m sure most people in TF wouldn't do this however conducting business this way i.e. allowing people to rescind their bids) leaves the DKP policy succeptable to exploitation. If this hasn't been addressed by an officer in the past can we please have this policy looked over. Thank You.
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Postby Skel » Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:11 pm

Regardless of content, that was an exceptionally well-said post :D. I don't think this sounds like a flame at all but addresses a legitimate concern. I have not personally witnessed this happening but as many of you know i don't get to raid very much anyhow.
I think that if withdrawing the high bid is not allowed on RL auctions for this same reason, then the same should hold true for our own policy ... discuss :)
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Postby Irish » Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:00 am

I think that was directed to me as that is what I did the other day with frawgy I bid up to 40 and she did liek 30 or 35 but I realised my hammer was better anyways and thought it was silly to bid on if she really needed the item so I let her have it. I see your point though hun and you are in no way flaming or anyting it is a good point you brought up and I will not bid again unless I am sure I want the item. But I did think I wanted that hammer.. but I feel in my own opinion my hammer was better and if she needed... he needed it more then me it was only fair to let him have it

sorry for the mistake
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Postby Uilea » Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:23 am

Well, the DKP policy does sort of assume that no one would be malicious enough to exploit it that way. So far I've only seen people pass/retract bids in order to give up an item to someone who needs it more, which is one of the reasons we decided on open bidding.

Personaly, I don't see this as an issue. But if it is bothering other people as well, what changes do you propose we make to address this?
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Postby Serano » Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:11 am

Fwragy is a dude.

other than that - I like to take a recended bid to give it to someone that it is better for. I will take a closer look tho if it is a two way bidding war and a recender backs out I could award it for the FIRST bid by the person that wins that was ONLY counter bid by the person that recended Their bid

Player 1: 10
Player 2: 15
Player 3: 20
Player 1: 25
Player 3: out
Player 2: 30
Player 1: 31
Player 2: 32
Player 1: 50
Player 2: 52
Player 1: pass
Player 2: nah - you can have it.

SOLD to Player 1 for 25. whatcha think?
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Postby Vikk » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:39 am

Unfortunately, in addition to being overly confusing, this scheme allows Player 1 and Player 2 to exploit the system by outbidding other players and then getting it for the cheaper point value. i.e. Player 4 might have been waiting for the bidding to settle down before bidding 30 but seeing how it is getting out of control, looses interest. You might, say, allow Player 4 to bid 30 when Player 2 passes but how complicated would that be?

I think the current system works as is but rescinded bids should be frowned upon. If a current player has a specific grievance over a rescinded bid, he/she should lodge a complaint to the officers. A repeat offender might be barred from bidding for a period of time, have DKP points docked, etc.

In RL, a bid is a binding contract so the highest bidder is obligated to buy the item unless the bid was erroneous. i.e. you can still give the item away but you would pay for it. This might be a little harsh for EQ though.
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rescinding

Postby Lemme » Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:17 am

Its not sold to player one for 25, its "going once" to player one for 25. That way if someone else wants to jump in, they can.
I can only remember this happening twice, and I dont believe it was the same person. In my opinion it should be frowned upon, and I do like Vikk's idea of talking to/penalizing repeat offenders.
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Postby Zyzzerzazz » Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:45 am

Great idea serano but i kinda dont like it.

here is your solution....

Know the raid mob and know his loot table......


Then, know how much you would pay in DKP if the loot you are looking at drops.


This way, you will know where to draw the line in the heat of bidding.

Also, I would like to resctict " Taking back the bid " .....its BS and I agree with you Rhaven.

A bid is like putting your $ on the table and saying " here i want to pay this much for that" then the seller says " Ill take it IF AND ONLY IF" no1 elseputs more $ on the table.....SO AS SOON AS YOU put your $ on the table( ie a bid ) you cannot take it back. Consider it gone~

Consider your bid sold and the DKP spent when you say " /gu 50 " untill some1 drops 51+ DKP....

KNOW YOUR DKP
KNOW YOUR POSSIABLE LOOT
KNOW YOUR LIMITS

Truley Bad form to retract a bid imo, like backing out on a contract in business, you are gonna get black-balled.

Now can we make everyone happy and get you raiders ONLINE and get them bids flying on $ loots ?~ ~~~
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Postby Conan » Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:45 am

I appologize if it seemed I was directing toward you Irish this isn't the case I was just trying to use even numbers i.e. 10-20-30-40 lol I think Zyzz hit the nail on the head the best uncomplicated way of doing this is bid what you want and be ready to pay it. I remember seeing people get screwed a couple months ago by bidding 20 over the next lowest bidder then having to pay the exorbant price because we made them stick to their offer. :thumbup Again I really like the way the dkp works though.
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Postby Worff » Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:44 am

There have been cases like I saw mentioned here, where someone retracts their bid to let someone else have the item that needs it more than they do, and they are being good-hearted about it intead of greedy. When this happens it should be pretty obvious. Heck there's been cases where I won a /rand 100 and decided after winning to pass on it.. again this scenario should be obvious by listening to conversation. I can't see disallowing this, but other than very few exceptions like this, retracting bids should be frowned upon like is being said.

Officers will end up having to make judgement calls on this if we start cracking down, on a case by case basis.. I would expect TF members to do their part in this and not bid more than they want to spend like Zyzz said, but don't buy something out of fear of retaliation if you realize during your bidding that you don't need it as bad as you thought you did.. just please try to check before you throw down your hard earned DKP'age.
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Postby Irish » Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:08 pm

it is okay hun I own up to things I do wrong though. but zyzz has a good point and all I hear alot in raid hey can somoen check my points. lol normally if I have it up I woudl mind but umm check your own points lol I do before each raid liek I knwo I have 52.... or 57.. lolI will check againt onight and knowing the loots is a good thing too like Inny I knwo that torch thing he has I would love to have but once I get my epic 1.5 I wont need it so I wont waste my points on that .. now a neck item from like VT or arms things like that I check on and see if I want...

that hammer for example I wanted it but likeI said I like my hammer... sure Ihave to summon it and all but hey only takes a few seconds
but alot of good points in here though

and again hun I didn't take it personally I jsut knew that I had done it. not to exploit the dkp I mean that was nto what I was doing it was the taking back my bid so someone I knew could use the item could have it
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Postby Serano » Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:19 pm

While I agree on the concept that bidding is a binding contract and all - there is something else to consider. We don't want someone to loot an item they realize isn't an upgrade for them.

I actually like Lemme's mod on my quickly thrown together thing - but we have to take time into consideration.

If this event occurs again - I will go back to the last bid before the reniging vote started escalating bid and do a gonig once call to see if there was someone else or not.

Until we have a more sound policy. If we make it a penalty to back out when you have made a mistake we might have peeps looting something that woulda been a better upgrade to a fellow guildy vs follow a "RULE." Rules and such are great as guidelines but common sence often has to be applied.
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Postby Vikk » Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:37 pm

I think that is a perfectly fine way to resolve the problem.

As a policy, we should still frown upon bid retractions. <INSERT BIG FROWN> [-X

They get people worked up and waste time; there's no need to encourage it. Listen to Zyzzerzazz: Know your lootz and know your DKPs and you shouldn't ever need to rescind a bid.
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ok

Postby bill » Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:07 pm

Player 1: 10
Player 2: 15
Player 3: 20
Player 1: 25
Player 3: out
Player 2: 30
Player 1: 31
Player 2: 32
Player 1: 50
Player 2: 52
Player 1: pass
Player 2: nah - you can have it.


Result: Player 2 wins for 52. If you are gonna bid several times, we are going to award player 2 the benefit of the doubt that they do know how to put their socks on in the morning and know they are bidding for an upgrade.

I really don't see any other way. They're your DKP folks, spend em how you like. If you want to cockblock a guild member who needs the upgrade more than you, I guess that's life. They should raid more often if they really want it and besides, almost any loot we get we get more than once and generally the price of DKP only goes down.

That's my input on the matter. The closed bidding system was developed the way it was to prevent this exact thing. Open bidding, well, the guild majority voted for it so here ya go =)
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Postby Serano » Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:13 pm

2nd offence the overbidder gets charged the DKP and doesn't get to loot?
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