Bidding rights when boxing someone elses main?

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Postby phishn00 » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:49 am

Just out of curiousity, how was the dkp workin last night? A boxed main bidding against someone who is actually there? I was just curious, because there's nothing in the dkp/loot section that touches on this, it only mentions boxed alts. It wasn't a big deal last night, because the item wasn't that great, but when Koadic's robes, etc. start dropping, I'm sure there will be a lot of pissed off people if they lose to a boxed char, whether it's a main or an alt. Isn't the purpose of dkp to reward those who spend their time helping the raid/guild? I'm not upset or trying to bitch, just lookin for clarification on the policy. It was a kick ass raid, very nice to see AL go down.
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Postby Serano » Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:09 am

that is correct. We havn't actually covered the category of a boxed main. In the case of Riann - who is a main in her own right - hell- she rejoined TF months before myt did. We have no policy that prevents a person from bidding for someone that is boxing a player. I mean in this case we knew it was myt boxing riann - but it very well coulda been riann boxing myt.

Regardless we have a few peeps that box someone elses main - let me move this discussion to its own thread so we can discuss and determine what we think the policy can be.

That reminds me - I need to publish the edit to the DKP in regards to points awarding I mentioned for last Friday.

back onto this point. I guess it really depends on the relationship of who is boxing (or maining for that matter) someone elses toon.

There are a couple different categories here.

We have peeps like me with multiple boxed toons that are labeled as my boxes ( taniquel/ Anakche are my boxed cleric/rogue) and my main Serano and my sometimes raiding Cleric Ranjadin. Nobody (at least for the LONG foreseeable future) boxes or mains Serano or Ranjadin other than me. I sometimes my wife might play tani or ana - and I could conceivibly let someone else play them. I wouldn't expect them to drain the points for tani vs a main for me = that is me. I have boxed luthe and atris before - but I don't think I would bid on any upgrades for them while boxing.

Myt has 2 toons Xdus and Mytmaxx and one Boxed Cleric Rekross. He can also Box Riann when needed. Riann is a RL gal - and I don't think she would box Myt while playing Riann unless we sent her sweet lovin thru the phone line and even then I don't think she would do it. I don't think that RIann would mind if myt buys something with the DKP

Jah - might box uilea, zyzzer, or dokwupp at any time and has an alt named Meeras that he will prolly only raid on for VERY unique circumstances. Dokwuup is his RL brother that I think would trust him to bid on - and I think that Uilea wouldn't mind if jah bid on an item for him. If zyzzer logged on and found that he had burned DKP on something that he didn't feel was enough of an upgrade then he might be unhappy. But if at only 1 or 2 DKP zyzzer had a cherry upgrade ---- I don't know what he would feel.

We have Nistari who plays xaznor as a pure box. he bids for xaz kinda like I do for tani - if no one else is seriously bidding on something.

We have adlewise/nokken who boxes or mains (and bids for) hansodest, maepoot and proly another I have lsot track of.

what does this all mean? I have no idea. We have a lot of different circumstances of peeps and their boxed categories. Should we have a policy that no BOXED toons gets to bid? I don't think so cause we have precident of them being given DKP and bidding (ultimatly boxed toons ---HELP --- TF cause as their gear gets better - subsequent raids where they are boxed in at will have the benifit of that added resource. So - if a person's main is boxed for an event - does this mean that the person is dead to bidding even tho they have earned points both as a played char and as a boxed char? Consider that the upgrade will assist the guild when that main is played by their real owner or boxed in the future - it seems to me that it is --- OK _---- but that is based on my version of what is important. To me all raid loot is good for the guild cause it builds our overall raid power. Who it is on - meh doesn't really matter to me that much in the macro level - but that is me. I have been here a LONG time.

Discuss , tear apart - etc - then we can see if we need to write policy in in regards to this
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Boxed Toons

Postby Goofydoofy » Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:29 am

I think that the player who owns the toon should be able to outbid a boxed toon. After all, the boxed toon is getting a upgrade without the true owner actually even being there. How can somebody else make the decision on spending somebody elses points?

Boxed toons can get points for somebody as they are helping the raid, but the true owner should only be able to spend them. What happens if Riann comes back and says she didn't actually want the item and wants the points back?
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Postby Zyzzerzazz » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:40 am

Honestly, if you are not at the raid, you shouldnt be able to bid on loot. You can loot un bidded / Rot items...but not spend anyone elses points...

IE if Jah Boxed zyzz and spent 2 pts on a $ upgrade no ither clerics could use...if you are not there you should not be able to bid...loot rotting gear yes...not bid tho.

With ppl and boxed players.....the Nistari case is easy...and he plays it $....He can spend Xaz's points as he wants...but NEVER competes over an upgrade over a main bidding....Perfect..


Adle / Handso / Nokken, I see this case a 1 player with 3 mains...treat toon as a diff main..forget thay are the same player....Handso get his points....Adle gets her....Nokk get his own points to spend anyway they want.

Not Boxed alts....Tani, and the like, she gets her own points for helping out on raids....let her ( aka serano) bid with he points ( not seranos points) as she wants....


Main thing tho.....and this is the glue that binds the stability and peace.....

Need b4 Greed.

Thats why i like the Link your current slot idea...gives ppl the oppertunity to bid with more knowladge.....
Last edited by Zyzzerzazz on Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bilnick » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:41 am

I think Goof is correct on this issue. Jah should not be able to spend Uilea's points, as an example. Nistari should be able to spend Xaznor's points as he sees fit. Personally, I think boxed toons should receive less points for a raid. Maybe give the boxed toon 2 points and the person boxing it an extra point. That way boxed toons will accrue points slower, and won't bid on as much loot.

Going linkdead during loot bidding should also be addressed. My opinion is if you go LD during the bidding, too bad. Kinda sucks, but holding up the raid for 2, 5, 10 minutes or more is not practical in my opinion.
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Postby Zyzzerzazz » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:44 am

Please nuke...this was double post from above.
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Postby Serano » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:03 am

zyzzer as homework I want you to see if you can nuke both your post and this one. I "BELIEVE" I have given you moderation powers. let me know how the lesson goes.

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/nod

Postby bill » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:04 am

Yeah, this is all pretty much done before I got here, I agree with Goof/Zyzz/Bil.

I think the line is drawn at spending someone else's DKP.

As for the LD thing, seriously it sucks, especially with the lack of reliability from the client lately. But after the King Tormax hit where his head was almost lost, waiting for one person to get back does not outweigh the entire raid getting loot, I'm really sorry.
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Postby Bilnick » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:10 am

Well if someone went LD and was in Ventrillo telling people that they are logging in etc, then bidding should be held. Sinadar went LD last night sometime during the XtC looting and missed out on bidding on the shield. Unless the LD person can get word back to the raid that he/she will be back QUICKLY, it has to be assumed that the LD person will not be returning.
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LD

Postby Goofydoofy » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:14 am

LD is a personal problem and has nothing to do with the raid. If you LD, sorry. But we can't be responsible for hanging out for a undertermined amount of time hoping you come back. You could be LD for many reasons, some of which will prevent you from coming back at all.

Last night on the raid, I waited from 4-7 minutes when people went LD because we were already at a point where that would not be a problem. But when the time was up, we moved on. If you were LD or AFK, to bad. 4 minutes is not 15 minutes. We try to help as much as possible, but we can't be expected to make things more complicated then they need to be because of such problems.

As for bidding when somebody goes LD, same thing applies. Granted, last night time was no longer a factor, but we need to be consistent because often the speed of looting and moving on is a factor. So we can't do it one way one time and another yet another time. The good news is, if you do go LD and miss a bid, rest in the fact we will more then likely be farming the target you missed out on and will get the same loot for less points on the next round of bidding.
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Postby Serano » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:30 am

ok - good feedback so far. Regardless in this - Myt- and Riann - don't feel like you are being persecuted in any way. some things aren't an issue until they come up.

So no wrong was commited in this, and I don't think any feelings are hurt. But when we are done we can make sure to enact policy that makes sence to the people that cared to discuss it here.
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Postby rsix » Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:41 pm

I knew I would log on and see this thread today....

Let me start by saying that I don't feel persecuted, nor do I feel that anything wrong was done here. Now let me shed some light on our situation... I live with Riann, she was thrilled about the bracer and thought it was cheap DKP for the upgrade. If she was not a main and it was not a significant upgrade, or she was not at all useful on a raid (in which case, I would have no need to box her); I never would have bid her points. I do not like boxing her on raids as I don't know much about chanties beyond grouping abilities. I can tell you she blew through about 40 peridots runing Waystin on the encounters and buffed quite a bit. I was asked to bring her because she was the only KEI chanter on at the time. She goes to bed early on weekdays or would have been there the whole time herself.
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Postby Serano » Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:44 pm

yah - but we knew all that. what do you think the policy should be freak?
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Point

Postby Goofydoofy » Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:47 pm

Another point. Maybe if the boxed tune was specifically required at the raid, that toon should have the same rights at bidding as any other? And if points are used by that toon and the real owner didn't want them used, I guess oh well. I'd venture to say that if your boxing somebody elses toon, they trust your judgement on such affairs. All shit to hash out.

On a side note, Riann is a female who is responsible and works? Hook me up!
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Postby rsix » Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:58 pm

I'm not in the guild for the loot, I can get that myself; I just wanna kill stuff. If I get stuff from raids, great.... if not also great as long as we kill something and someone gets something. I truly am impartial on the policy. I think many ppl made valid points here, however I have to agree with yours the most... it truly depends on the relationship and the necessity of the boxed toon. I would not box some friends gimp warrior on a raid when we have 10 tanks already and no need for them just so they can get items or DKP. However if I'm asked to bring Riann due to need and happen to have lived with that person for over 5 years, I don't feel so bad bringing them and getting upgrades for them when I KNOW they won't mind. This is one of those grey areas.

If you guys come up with a policy that is not favorable to a boxed main getting loot even when needed on the raid, that will not prevent me from boxing helping in any way I can.
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