Epic Loot Question

[copulous]

i wanted to read the policies before i wrote this, and i know it's too late now, but for future reference, here is my question.

In Chardok, we randomed for the Queen's blade drop...an epic drop.
In Fear, Uilea was predetermined to do the turn in.
In Fear, the Tear was randomed.
In Fear, the Ball of Everliving Golem cost me 32 DKP pts.

The DKP policy states that epic drops will be determined before the raid, although i am perfectly fine with /random 100. So how are we handling epic drops? one way or the other is fine with me, but it should be the same at every raid, and consistant with the policy so we know what to expect.

[Serano]

Lol cop just before I read this I was chating with mansha and conan on this.

The typical TF way has been the person furthest along gets the drop.

I had xaz loot the prince head in chardok cause no one else was there that needed it - I looted the cleric drop cause no one there needed it and I can MQ it to guild cleric or tani later -- and I asked the warriors if you wanted to dkp or ran. I think you guys picked ran.

adle/ who was playing maepoot - stated in his raid plan who would do the broken golem turn in and said someting about ran for shamen and didn't list wariors at all.

My prefered way if I am doing it is whoever is furthest along gets it. whoever has the best accounting of where they are in the quest forums helps. But I am sick and I have had a head ache and I had to do more than just press 1 1 1 1 1 1 11 1 1 tongiht in fear like I planed so I don't know.

BUT -- I will add - that our DKP / loot policy says that the MOST contested drop for an quest is often DKPed - and I would actually offer up that the tear and the ball in fear are the most contested drops for the shaman and warrior epic.

[Nagaash]

Just an opinion on the subject, but I agree with Cop that the loots for epic pieces ALWAYS be the same. I believe it should go something like this, with #1 getting first dibs on the drop and then moving down the list:

1. whoever is farthest along with their epic quest
2. if two people are at comparable levels in the completion of their epic quest, whoever puts in a request for the item in the forum first
3. if no requests for the item(s) is/are made, random /100
4. if only one of the particular class is there, they automatically gain loot rights (i.e., Jenka tonight in PoF)

I believe those four items should cover just about any situation. But like I said, this is just how I would do it. Take my suggestion for what you will ... or not at all.

[Nagaash]

Oh, by the way ... almost forgot. I think having to spend DKP to loot an epic drop is just WRONG.

[copulous]

i didn't know Adle was playing Maepoot so that clears some things up. i thought he was just the raid leader and you (serano) were in charge of loot being the officer.

also, i read the blib about contested "quest loots" being dkp'd, and i agree that the tear and ball are very contested, but i also read another section underneath that "epic drops" would be determined pre-raid. since they were listed seperately, i took that to mean quest was different than epic (even though epic is really just a quest.)

points are points and while i'll miss my depleted dkp, i'm glad i got the ball.

Nagaash....you're list to determine the rights to epic drops is pretty good. i think, that's pretty much how it's done..or used to be. i have been away for a while. only thing i'd say is #2 is kinda iffy. some people are on these boards ENTIRELY TOO MUCH!!!! <cough> dran <cough>

thanks for explanation Ser

[Serano]

well to be honest I don't consider epics different from any other quest. Just cause the have a name doesnt' impress me. We should prolly revamp everything about quest loots and DKP to be honest.

IMO once someone has DKPed any one quest loot they get looting priority from then on tho. Since I think that is what it says.

[Adlewiese]

Guys, to be honest my brain wasn't in the right place. I started the raid on Hansodest (in Ferrott) and Maepoot inside fear. I was trying to scout and see what was avialable while the raid was forming.

The problem was, hansodest could /rs (but he doesn't see TF guild chat).

I was using Maepoot to watch what was going on in /gu.

Ok, so now I am talking to Serano, decide the raid doesn't need Hansodest, camp Hansodest.

So in /gu I am on Maepoot giving messages about ..."We will begin buffing in 2 or 3 minutes. I think Resulta, and 2 others were in bound to the raid.

Also at the same time, I am making a few /rs comments on getting ready to zone in to Fear (at this time, I don't know NOBODY is seeing my preparation comments because I am not expecting any answers).

So Now here's the funny part... In /rs, I announce i will count down from 3 to zone in and everyone run to the West wall.

I give the countdown in /RS and BOOM! Nobody zones in. Now, my mind goes into overdrive and I think this is a big joke on Maepoot. I am somewhere between pissed off and thinking it's a pretty funny joke when I get a /tell from Serano asking me something about if I am going to run this raid or not or something that tipped me off that no one was seeing my /rs messages.

Back to the subject...

Copulous, I am glad you raised this issue and as Serano said, I am sure we will discuss and clerify the policy regarding "epic drops: dkp or no dkp".

Last night was an instance where we had lots of people getting epic drops. To date as a member in TF, I don't recall this happening on a raid I have attended and to be honest, had not really thought thru epic drops and dkp. But I aggree, it needs to be one way or the other concerning dkp usage.

[Serano]

Ok where do you want to go with this?

I had similar question from Zeil - as to why uilea was picked before him on wizzy epic.

He is the number 1 person requesting a complete my quest raid in the forum

http://www.tribalfury.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1887

but in the raid thread uilea is the only wizard that posts on the thread other than Ozzy --- and ozzy mentions that he will defer to any further along --- zeil however actually has it posted exactly where he is on the quests forum. According to the quest page zeil has 3 hits left where as Uilea was able to turn in and complete epic after that kill. So according to the tradition the closest to completion gets the drop - that worked out.

The bottom line is - it ain't easy. We don't have people signing up in quests forum for quest drops. There is a thread dedicated to WHERE are you in What quest. I will commit this to you - if I am raid leading and you 1) have your quest posted in that forum - you will be the top of the list for loot rights if you are furthest along on a quest. 2) no more than one loot per any quest will be DKPed unless there is a good example that comes up for a drop that should be special in that regards.

The goal is that no one should have to DKP for any quest drop unless there is more than 1 person at the exact same spot in the quest. when we were in chardok - I had no idea where either warrior on the raid was on the warrior weapon quest and asked - do you guys want to DKP or ran - they chose random and that is the way I did that one.

But if people don't use the quest page - and update their progress - what tools do we have to determine who DKPs, rans, or gets quest loots god looted to them?

4) Loot
a) DKP Raids: The Loot Officer has total authority over all Raid Loot as outlined in this policy, and is responsible for administering this policy.
b) Non-DKP Pick-up Raids: if a raid does not meet the requirements to be a DKP raid (see "Raid Definition above"), then the Raid Leader has total authority over Loot.
c) All guild raid loot is covered under this system.
d) God Loot will typically only occur if the raid's goals are to accomplish quest completion for designated characters. Sometimes, tempo of raid may require someone to be directed to loot X loot without a bid. This is a RARE occurance.
e) Quest Loots are typically DKP'd if it is a contested quest and then ussually only the hardest drop (rarest) will be DKP'd.
f) Single/limited-Class usable items: if only one character of that class is at the raid, single/limited-class usable items may be awarded for no points.

and yet there is a special section in our DKP rules addressing Quest and Eipic Quests.

6) Quest and Epic Quest Related Hits:
a) Epic and Quest drops are assigned before the raid occurs.
b) The raid to get the epic drop can use the RP system for all other loot as long as the guidelines for what determines a raid are met (see "Raid Definition" above). If those requirements are met, points will be awarded for the raid. If it is not a DKP raid (ie: no Officer present) then it is up to the Raid Leader to decide between random or assigned loot.

WHy X quest is different from Y quest just because one has a word EPIC in front of it is beyond me. Take for example the phyiactory will get you no where quest or the PoP artesian aid whoever quest - both of them are far more involved than any of the kunark epic quests - so why would a Kunark era quest drop get GOD looted but the key drop for philactory quest would be DKPd? I really don't know

In a perfect guild - any player that had a raid required quest would post it in the one thread where I asked all players to sign up and keep their progress current. If a player had to DKP for any quest drop - then in my opinion all subsequent drops towards that quest should be priority looted to that player if they are at the next raid that drops the next part of that quest. If they are not the next player that DKPd for or if is lucky enough to be the only other player at the raid needing that drop gets it.

For example with cop's drop from Fear - if he is with me next time I go to chardok I would drop the queen and have him loot the blade if he neeeded it since he has DKPd for the hardest drop in fear. If he isn't there but conan and jumjam and blood are there - I would let blood have it since he needed it and the other 2 had it. Likewise when we go up to sky in a week or so - to farm Isle 5 - Cop would be priority for Swingblade 1 and the remaining would go to whoever was further along based on the quest that they have dutfully posted their progress on in the link posted above. That is in a perfect world. At this time I dont even have a quest posted for myself - I will have to find a new one.

[Serano]

I made a recomendation to the players on how to accomplish quests in this thread

http://www.tribalfury.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1886

few have followed that recomendation. If every quester did I think we could help each other better.

[coldencynikel]

Just to throw another turd in the punchbowl...
I would consider 1) time in guild, 2) level, 3) past raid attendance. To illustrate the time in guild philosophy, I previously stated that I would yield to Nagaash because he was in guild before me. As far as raid attendance, for example, Conan is practically 100% since joining and we all know that he is usually our tank and needs decent gear. Someone like that having his epic wep could benefit all of us.

Colden

[bill]

Hmmmm.......

Perhaps DKP could be used solely to settle disputes when more than one person wants the same quest drop. Read quest as: any epic or other quest.

Interesting topic.

[copulous]

i'm very glad to see that my question has led to an interesting conversation with many possible solutions/ideas being tossed around. if two or more people are at the exact same place in their epics, then whoever gets said drop will inherently be farther along and will automatically obtain the next epic drop on the next epic raid, and then he/she will automatically obtain the next epic drop on the next epic raid and so on (given that those same players are at each raid together.) that really doesn't seem fair either to me, even though i could be on the greener side of that equation.

i'm leaning toward /random for epic drops. it seems perfectly unbiased and fair if everyone else agrees. only times i think we should not use /random are 1) if there is someone there who only needs said drop to COMPLETE their epic and 2) the person at the raid is the one who actually requested/lead the raid for the epic drop in question.

could probably make a few adjustments to that, but it's just a thought.

[quaanshaman]

We three shaman on the raid were at the exact same point in our epic, having been stalled for many months waiting for the Child's Tear drop, before we could proceed with the quest. Without knowing the exact procedure for determining who would get priority, we talked amongst ourselves and decided we could all live with randoming for the drop(s) similar to what we had seen done at the Chardok raid. I hope that was ok, because it would have been more difficult to figure out otherwise...
all of us having different length of time in guild, percentage of raid attendance, and order in which we posted to MB (I can't even believe that posting order is suggested as a fair method <boggle>)

Luckily we each got a drop, so this didn't have a chance to become an issue. I would say that, had I felt this was an item I wanted real bad, I probably would have pushed hard for using DKP bidding, knowing that I was in a position to outbid the others. But even that is a funky method because the first tear could have gone for 40DKP, the second could have gone for 20 DKP and the third would have been scooped up for 1 DKP, all for the same exact quest drop. It's probably the fairest way though, because it reflects how badly you really want the quest item vs. maybe not getting the drop and possibly having to wait until the next Fear raid, or the next or the next..)
Quaan

Big thanks to all who helped on this raid, --> lots of happy people with epic drops : ) = better morale

[Serano]

there is a good reason to have whoever has either bought (DKP) or been earliear awarded any quest drop being the #1 free candidate from then on - until quest completed. It prevents or mitegates 2 - 4 people having bits of a quest when you could have 2 completed. I think I laid this out in some old discussion that

if A B and C all want X quest - if you DKPed (or ran for that matter) the 1st part of the quest to A and then did the same thing when 2nd part droped but B won - then when the third part dropped - C won it (either by DKP or ran systems) now you have 3 people 1/3 done with a quest when you coulda had 1 done.

But like I said before - without clear postings of who is working on any particular quest it makes it hard to know who is "ahead." goofy said we should DKP for every drop along on a quest - I dunno.


For example if we got a hankering to start farming Dozz in HOT TOV --- we said a long time ago that dozz drops would be DKPed but the quest drops would be MQed or given away for free to whoever had DKP bought the tears that Dozz drops --- to prevent someone from having to "buy" the same item more than once.

I am leaning towards scrapping all referances to EPIC in DKP --- and firm up the policy that each quest will DKP on the hardest (or first as is relavent to X quest) drop from it, if it is contested and all subsequent drops for that quest will be awarded based on who DKPed it first or who is further along if there needs to be further discrimination.

This opens up the can of wurms of what quest piece is the hardest drop - well, with some honest feedback, thought and evaluation - it should be that hard to determine what drops are the hardest. For example I would say that any quest that requires a fear raid - the drop for that quest would be the hardest since, Who wants to go to fear?

With the exception of the Necro and warrior drop in Sky - all epic drops in sky are one groupable now that 80% of the guild has keys to most isles - save for 7 to which only about 20 have keys to it. Does that mean that people routinly take one group to sky to farm epic drops? nope.

All epic drops in hate are 1 groupable. All epic drops in chardok, KC, Seb, hole, kedge, require no more than 2 groups. So in regards to fear - I would have to say that any quest drop from fear should be classed as the hardest drop and available for DKPing per our published rules.

I like my method I used in Chardok when there was no clear leader towards completion - and neither had their progress on quest - I asked you guys want to DKP or ran - and they chose ran. Now that Cop has DKPed one purchase towards his 3 sword quest - then it is obvious according topolicy that he is priority at all subsequent raids that drop bits for his swords until his quest is completed

[copulous]

either way....as long as we all know.