NEW DKP BIDDING POLICY

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Postby Guardrail » Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:58 pm

Your right..there hasn't been that type of dscussion in awhile but my point still stands. What makes the raids activity more important then what MIGHT be going on in guild?

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Postby Zyzzerzazz » Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:12 pm

importance is not the issue.

the fact of the matter is, w/e is going on in /gu can either
A. Be put on hold 2 min
B. Taken to tells or
C. TFChat

Otherwise, importance is easy to measure,

40ppl at raid
50ppl in guild online.

40ppl WORKING hard ( x hours) to get XYZ done > 15pp chatting about policy/jokes/grp formming that needs to be in /gu that cannot be in tells or TFCHAT?

I honestley dont see this as a matter of importance tho....playing that lil devil like Kieano.

So as I stand, keep it as courtesy when loot drops. Take it to tells or tfchat.
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hmm

Postby bill » Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:23 pm

My point still stands that if someone wants to be that guy talking while we are trying to sort out loot, go be that guy! Nothing is saying its not allowed and prompt guild dismissal shall follow.

The point you are arguing against is simply asking that ppl be courteous to the majority of the guild that is dealing with the fruits of OUR labors. When they raid (if they raid) I'm sure they would appreciate the same level of courtesy extended to them.

Guardrail the Devil's Advocate wrote:What makes the raids activity more important then what MIGHT be going on in guild?


What makes the conversation in /gu more important?

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Why did that chicken cross the road?

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Enjoy ;)
Last edited by bill on Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Iksurmunky » Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:31 pm

Guys, some of you are reading WAY too deep into this.

Relax. NOWHERE have we even MENTIONED making raids mandatory. It will not happen - TF is NOT about being ANYTHING mandatory.

Look - the discussion here is about bidding. Not mandatory raids, and not who is more important than who.

Goofy - you are reading too much into it about the grats. We do not want confusion - as imagine someone who bid on an item sees GRATS in /gu chat but the bidding wasnt done - He can very well assume that it was then his and he just missed the rest of the bidding.

Guard - no one is saying what you are doing isnt important. I have always been a HUGE advocate of the needs of the guild is more important than the needs of the one. We are not asking anyone to shutup. We are not asking anyone to not use the guild channel. We are not asking anyone to be at every raid every day of the week.

There is no reason for everyone to get all huff-puff about this. Its a bidding system. Dont you ALL have friends who raid with the guild?

It sounds like to me only because someone suggested a little bit of downtime in /gu for bidding so people can focus - everyone takes it as a personal attack. Its not just our channel, but its not just yours either.

Lets put this in perspective here a minute.

On my raids, I let the non-raider have the /gu channel 90% of the time.
Are you telling me that I cant use it for the other 10% of the time?


Raids are not mandatory, and we are NOT 1 step away from making it that way.
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Postby Guardrail » Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:22 pm

It sounds like to me only because someone suggested a little bit of downtime in /gu for bidding so people can focus - everyone takes it as a personal attack. Its not just our channel, but its not just yours either.

Lets put this in perspective here a minute.


Thats fine... and no one here is in a huff. I just think that /rsay and raid channels should be for raid related stuff. /gu should be there for yes, all of us to use, anytime we want to use it. If the officers/RL chooses to use guild for bids, then so be it. Those that are curteous might not chat and there are those that might, for those that might, well then you/everyone will just have to deal with it.

Raids are not mandatory, and we are NOT 1 step away from making it that way.


I would hope not but I've been around this guild long enough to see many ups and downs, I've seen multiple exodus, including my own for that very reason. At this moment though there are too many signs to be ignored.
1. TF is finally close to actually attempt and taking any Boss they want. (gear providing) Which is awesome!!
2. We've had at least 2 people leave the guild as they have fealt raid priority is higher than anything else.
3. All raids are now mobo and could potentially be any night of the week.
4. The current list of mobs which includes planar progression are still contested.

Put 1. 3. 4. together eventually the only way to get the force you need to take some of these is make the raids mandatory.

Maybe this is my silly RNG mind working too hard, but try and look at this from anothers perspective.

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Guild Chat

Postby Goofydoofy » Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:59 pm

I'm not reading anything into anything. I'm stating a fact that if you use guild chat for bidding, it might be a problem for others. Thats a pretty simple statment which means nothing but what it says.

As for mandatory raids, it's not going to happen. So anybody who worries about it before it does happen is making a mistake.

As for me shutting up for two minutes so you can do a bid in guild chat, I doubt I will conform if I don't feel like it.

It isn't that hard to make a channel named tfbid or something to do the bidding in and not interfer with people not on a raid.

This will probably never matter to me since I attend all the raids when I'm online anyway. But a lot of the stuff I talk about doesn't affect me, but the guild. I'm not thinking of me, but the other people in the guild when I type messages 99% of the time.

As for you Nistari, FU!

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Postby Bilnick » Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:20 pm

I would hope that the current officers do not repeat the mistakes of past and make raids mandatory. It seems to me since we are hitting new content people have more enthusiasm towards raiding. I really do not see TF focusing more on raiding now than it did back in May when we were killing Trakanon 2 times a week and romping thru old VP. The major difference is back in May a raid force of 12-18 was considered a good turnout. Now we get 30-45 people.

I did a quick check of the DKP board and counted how many days we raided in each month.

January - 23
February - 20
March - 2 (what happened??)
April - 13
May - 18
June - 17
July - 15
August - 20
September - 22

I just went by the dates listed next to each raid so the numbers could be off by 1 or 2 each month, but I think we have been fairly consistent in the number of raids since May, with the usual summertime lull reflected in June and July.
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wow

Postby bill » Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:38 pm

Wow Bil! that's a useful piece of info there.

I know what happened in March. I left, pens and co left and we went through the dark times. Fast forward to now.

There were some fundamental changes that took place when Arielyn took over. One of those was to do away with mandatory raiding so the next person that mentions it has to drop and give me 20!

Seriously, no one has to be quiet while we are doing loot in /gu. In fact, you can be the drooling idiot you've always wanted to be as well. We encourage our guild members to live up to and meet all of their goals!

LOL

All kidding aside, the reason we don't want to use a channel like TFchat for loot is that the channels aren't very secure.

I mean, why bother making ANOTHER channel when we already have one?

THAT, folks, is why we want to use GU and then RSAY for guests.

Because its a dependable way to get communication to our guild while they raid.

As long as both sides are observing the needs of the other (raider vs. not-raider) then we won't have any problems.

If someone is gonna blather and foam at the mouth the whole time we are trying to do a loot call, there is gonna be a problem JUST AS MUCH as if you were trying to sort out something important and we barge in declaring you can't talk.

That is the SAME amount of ignorance from either scenario.

So if you don't want to be told when you can't and can speak in /gu (which we don't want to do) then be courteous to YOUR guild when they need the channel clear MOMENTARILY to handle the rewards of many hours of work from MANY people.

Regardless of what our title is, our raids ARE what hold many ppl here.

March is what happens when our raiders leave. BTW.
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Guild Chat

Postby Goofydoofy » Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:02 pm

You can call it ignorance or anything you like, but I won't be told to shut up if I don't want to. Simple as that. Others feel the same way.

I find it ignorant you can't do bidding in any other place.
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lol

Postby bill » Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:06 pm

I find it ignorant that you can't read the reasons I have posted of why we don't want to use a channel that's not secure.

Here, in case you can't scroll that far...

The ignorant overbearing officer wrote:Because its a dependable way to get communication to our guild while they raid.


Please go and show me a better solution instead of being Negative Nancy as usual and we will have ourselves a better solution.
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Solution

Postby Goofydoofy » Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:19 pm

Umm, lemme see.

/makechannel tfbid

/1 Bidding starts at 1

/1 Sold

Your worried about channels not working and security? If security was such a issue, why did people start posting the location and times or the places we we're going to raid on the calendar?

Do what you want, I really don't give a shit. But I think its a mistake to force anything related to raiding into guild chat for the people not on the raid.

If you can't see the reasoning in that thought, then your not to concerned about the non-raiders.
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.

Postby arielyn » Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:56 pm

Ok just a couple of things here.

a: As long as i am in charge, Tribal Fury will NEVER make raids mandatory. I don't want anyone to do something if they don't want to do it. People might try to coax you into raiding, just because we might need the help, but thats just human nature. However, if you don't want to raid, then don't. No problem in my eyes. And i'll not think anything less of you. I want my guildies to enjoy everquest and to play the game the way they want to play.

b: As far as using /guild chat for bidding. we are still tweaking the system. As of right now, Guild chat is the easiest / most secure / most ideal place for it. If it becomes too big of a problem, we can figure out some other way. The reason I prefer loots to be done in guild is because quite frankly, i like the fact that people who aren't on the raid can see what their friends are winning. I haven't seen any problem with people being told to be quiet in guild when bidding is going on, if anything, i've seen more people say Wow nice, or thats a sweet drop .. And considering that maybe 80-85% of the guild are on a raid, i feel like it almost gives the 20% that aren't a way to still feel part of the action. If it becomes a problem, we will figure out some other way. Remember people, this is a policy we just implemented. We still have to work out the kinks. Rest assured, that us officers beat ourselves up daily trying to make this guild the best it can be. We spend countless hours discussing stuff to make the guild run smoother / be more polished / make a better environment for our members. It is very tough to keep 130+ people happy, and sometimes, people are going to get upset about things. thats just the way it goes. I do my best to keep everyone happy with our little family. I love everyone in this guild, and it tears me apart when someone leaves. But i have to dust myself off, and move on. I wish i knew the way to make everyone happy all the time during every situation and every instant of their time in Tribal fury, But i don't have that knowledge. All i can do is give 100% of my energy into trying to reach that plateau.

Maybe if i was more of a dictator style guild leader, then alot of the things that people get upset might be different. However i am not that kind of person. I want everyone to feel like they have a say in every part of this guild. Discussions get into heated arguments, but also benefit us as a whole and make us stronger together. Thats life. thats all there is to it. As of right now, Tribal Fury is one of the strongest guilds as far as family goes. We get along so well, and have an Amazing reputation on this server. If we stay together, there is no telling what we will accomplish. And i swear that i will continue to do my hardest to keep this guild the way it is. whether bidding goes in /gu or /rsay or /tfbid or in auction channel /shrug it doesn't matter in all honesty. If guild chat proves to be a problem for too many people, we will move it. For now. I have not received many complaints about the new bidding system. If it becomes a problem for too many people, we will move it. As of right now though, guild is the channel we are going to use. I am always up for a /tell or a PM if it really bothers someone so badly . My email is always available for any suggestions people might have about something that needs to be fixed in their eyes.

Anyway. Thats pretty much all i can say right now. I love you guys, and lets stay focused on kicking ass and taking names, rather than stressing minor details such as where bidding goes. Us officers are working our asses off daily. Cut us a little slack sometimes if we make a mistake, or whatever . We're human ( well except for drannor, he's a mutant)

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Postby Jahras » Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:41 am

bidding in /gu seems best to me, because...

1) channels go down, a lot
2) not everyone is in rsay all the time
3) not everyone is in zone all the time

eg: what happens when the RL tells me, quick jah, log on meeras and grab x person who is late for raid, and something jah wants drops >.<

or if i have even loged back on jah and am fighting to get a new raid invite for 10 mins.
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Postby kunglao » Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:53 pm

wow ... somewhere back there I think this thread was just telling us how we are gonna be using DKP from now on. Don't quote me on that ... but I think that's what this thread was. It was also a place to offer suggestions / tweaks to the system. Gotta love <Tangent Fury> =)

Why people like to play Devil's Advocate is beyond me. "What if's" don't help. Guard, Goofy ... you guys are always courteous to your fellow guildies, and that's all that was asked. Courtesy. Not to shut up or anything of the sort. If there is a pressing issue in /gu and a bid just "happens" to start at the same time, I'm sure the officers will help with what ever issue is at hand. Devil's Advocate allows us to see the other side of an argument / debate, but if the only people bringing up that are point are acting as DA ... then it really isn't a problem, is it ?
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Postby Goofydoofy » Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:10 pm

I thought you retired.



LOL I was going to leave it at that and watch all the shit fly my way with great amusment. But I wanted to add, good to see ya back. And so we are clear, I am the devil...There is no advocate involved.

Arielyn got it right. He said we'll do it that way and if it creates a problem, then it will change. That's all I wanted to hear. I wanted somebody to recognize there may be a problem with the format instead of just saying this is how it is and fuck you.

That's the whole purpose of these debates.

You better recognize yo.
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