Vote for DKP Change (regarding members vs. non-members)

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Should members be allowed to be outbid by non-members?

Yes
18
45%
No
22
55%
 
Total votes : 40

Postby kunglao » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:36 pm

Fok ... I agree completely. There should be a raid advantage to having <Tribal Fury> under our name. Foklar worded it perfectly as far as I can tell. Also, whoever brought up the idea of awarding guests DKP, then allowing them to spend those points once tagged, I agree with, also. They raid, they earn points to spend, they say hey, I like these guys, mind if I join ? That guest will not start in TF at < 0 > DKP, they have a pool to bid from now.

Honestly, I have no idea why we started giving points to guests in the first place ( but it started right after Pens left and we had maybe 10 people on at a time for any given raid). But I didn't have a real strong opnion for or against the implementation, so never said anything. We did what we had to in order to get into a raid worthy state again. Now that we have a sizable raid force, we should be doing something to entice even more people into the guild to hit harder mobs. For me, these are the reasons we have (or should have) guests : a) Ex-TF'ers lending support, b) possible applicants, or c) a second guild to take down some PoP boss mob for flags. Of those reasons ... why would a guest need points ? a) they see better gear drop anyway, don't need what we kill, b) future TF'er ... no, we don't do applications, but why would they want to join if they can earn the points without a tag ? and c) Loot rules would be discussed prior to the raid, due to the temporary alliance for a raid in which we need numbers.

These are my ramblings, time to place my vote.

P.S.: and before anyone harps on me about having an opinion when I don't raid right now ... save it. These are my thoughts, I've seen the DKP in action, I've used it, and liked it. But seeing both sides of this debate, well .. you now see my opinion.
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Guests

Postby Goofydoofy » Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:05 pm

We started giving points to guests because TF could only muster 4 people for a raid. We couldn't just have the 4 TF people bidding on the loot that 15 non-TF people helped get. And, it was a incentive to get people to raid with us and get to know us and eventually join the guild. Now we have grown past that need. But I don't think because of that we should stop giving points to people who want to hang out with us and maybe eventually join us. And if they don't join us, so what? They decided we aren't the right guild for them. Let them spend the points anyway. The key here is "THEY EARNED IT".
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hmm

Postby bill » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:30 pm

Ya know Goof the worst thing is that while not being on the same side of the arguement, I don't disagree with you, at all.

To the Management:

How long/how many votes before you think we have a good count, 1 week? 2 weeks?
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Postby Serano » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:39 pm

I should post everything that bill and I have been PTing each over over the last week.

Asside from that, DKP Policy 9. All your DKP points earned can only be spent if you join TF someday.

/gu welcome to TF person that has raided with us 12 times
/rsay grats to TFpersonthatraidedwithus12timesandthenjoined us on your goldenlootofsweetness at 34 points
/gu been great guilding with you - thanks for the lewts - later.

shrug - not very likely, but just as much a theory as everything else here.

Ok - here is the bottom line. You guys want to see tougher content and see it with a TF tag? Check this - there are about 20 every time raiders and about 20-25 half the time raiders. everyone of you raiders - get a new raider to join TF in the next 30 days. DO that and we will be in Elemental planes by. TAG in TF. the other 20-25 half time raiders - you need to get one new member too.

That upgrades our pool of people that want to hit content from 20 full timers to 40 - with a pool of 40 part timers. that =s 2 hits of 60 people a week. with that - we can go elemental by the end of October. If you don't bring them in, we don't progress - if that is what you want to call Sony's artificial lure.

/salute
(I will work on my one raider somehow - hard as hell for me since I am such a wallfloweer)

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Re: Guests

Postby Champion Flogger » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:42 pm

Goofydoofy wrote:We started giving points to guests because TF could only muster 4 people for a raid. We couldn't just have the 4 TF people bidding on the loot that 15 non-TF people helped get. And, it was a incentive to get people to raid with us and get to know us and eventually join the guild. Now we have grown past that need. But I don't think because of that we should stop giving points to people who want to hang out with us and maybe eventually join us. And if they don't join us, so what? They decided we aren't the right guild for them. Let them spend the points anyway. The key here is "THEY EARNED IT".

When you implemented this, TF was in a world of hurt. Are we now? I say no. In recent days we have been fielding 30+ per raid quite often. Now before you say we need more, think about what TF is about. Ari stated at when he took the reigns that TF would return to more of a family style. Raiding would happen, but would never be required. Because of this fact, we attract players that like to raid but don't want to be forced to.

This is why (among other reasons) we only field 1/3 of the guild on each raid. So, here's where that puts us. First, we are making up more than 75% of the raid force... not the other way around like when Pens left. Second, if you want to put more TFers on these raids then you either have to make requirements (not an option) or double the size of the guild (which is unlikely.) Third, if you let non-TF take upgrades from members, you cause us to require help from outside further down the road. This is help we possibly would not NEED if our members were better geared. (I stress the word need there because we still would always welcome friends to come with us.)

Now, before anyone says that I'm selfish, let me say this. I'm not all about loot. (Hell, I have my fellow guildies tell me how gimp my gear is all the time, seriously.) However, I have accepted that getting our members geared would be benificial to the guild as a whole. So, with that in mind, I believe that policies that were made to breathe life back into TF should be re-evaluated now that TF is up and running.

On the recruiting side.. an applicant should be evaluating our skills and our personality on raids. If someone doesn't join because they can't get loot as a non-member, then we didn't want that loot whore anyway.

So, why are some of you so bent on letting non-members have loot? Is it just to be different? Do you think it will increase our numbers enough to do EP raiding without required raid rules? Do you really think that ex-TF'ers will stop helping us if they can't loot?

EDIT: Ser, you are correct in your recruitment formula. However, I don't see how this would help that. I don't see anyone actively recruiting with or without this policy. Also, unless something has changed, the elemental planes are not one of the guild goals... or was that just an example, sir?
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Re: Guests

Postby Goofydoofy » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:29 pm

Champion Flogger wrote:
Goofydoofy wrote:We started giving points to guests because TF could only muster 4 people for a raid. We couldn't just have the 4 TF people bidding on the loot that 15 non-TF people helped get. And, it was a incentive to get people to raid with us and get to know us and eventually join the guild. Now we have grown past that need. But I don't think because of that we should stop giving points to people who want to hang out with us and maybe eventually join us. And if they don't join us, so what? They decided we aren't the right guild for them. Let them spend the points anyway. The key here is "THEY EARNED IT".


When you implemented this, TF was in a world of hurt. Are we now? I say no. In recent days we have been fielding 30+ per raid quite often. Now before you say we need more, think about what TF is about. Ari stated at when he took the reigns that TF would return to more of a family style. Raiding would happen, but would never be required. Because of this fact, we attract players that like to raid but don't want to be forced to.


As you can see, I said we have grow past that need. Why ask after I clearly stated we have grown past that need. As a side note, who is to say we won't be there once again? Are we going to change the rules every 6 months.
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Postby Calthine Faeriesong » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:06 pm

How long/how many votes before you think we have a good count, 1 week? 2 weeks?


There's 105 - 111 people in the guild, depending on when you look. I still think it's a case of smoke without a fire. I'd like to see 70+ votes. =/- 12% of members wanting this changed is hardly a telling number.

but considering the argument was going for a week before Dran posted the poll, I'd say give it until Friday.
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past polls

Postby bill » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:09 am

Cal, have you ever seen a vote break 55 in your time in EQ?
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Postby Serano » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:16 am

Results (total votes = 43):
Raid points - refine system that was used for test 24 / 55.8%

I don't want Points or god loot - BUT points are better than god 2 / 4.7%

I don't want points or god loot - BUT god is better than points 3 / 7.0%

God Loot - refine and publish guild god loot policy 14 / 32.6%

from:
http://pub207.ezboard.com/ftribalfury31 ... =281.topic

I don't know if you can still get in there dran or not - but that move in guild direction was made with only 43 votes.
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...

Postby bill » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:28 am

Cal, are you arguing for my point or against it?

My point was waiting till this vote hits 70 votes is akin to deleting it. It won't happen.

EDIT
I don't know how seriously this is being considered if at all, but if the management is looking to this vote for some help in deliberation, maybe we should put a tiny note in the Guild MotD?

If we lament that not enough ppl are visiting the website, maybe this would be one more reason to visit.

Help decide the future of your guild!
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Postby Serano » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:38 am

wait bill, you start a poll and all the sudden you want it to be guild buisness? pushy aren't we?

I told you if you wanted a poll - go ahead and have your poll. Never said I was going to sell your poll in guild message of the day.
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hehehe

Postby bill » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:42 am

well, I didn't know if you guys were planning to do. I would like to think if the majority of the people that vote will make an impact on the guild.

I would like to think the majority of the guild would even vote.

If Cal's numbers are right then we got a while to go hehe.
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Postby Serano » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:51 am

I dunno. was something supposed to change as a result of the poll? I am a little fuzzy there

/sarcasm off

I dunno dran. The whole topic has seemed an irrelavent derail from the begining. I dont' think a single person that isn't in TF gives a damn about our DKP and only the ones that genuinly want to 1. help us win 2. see content with us --- will go to our raids. Anyone that wants loot from our raids won't be returning after the first time that we do our DKP bids with TF points at the end of the raid not even mentioning random.

So the bottom line is, if this poll inspires TF to change our policy - nothing will really change. TF will still get all of the loots from DKP only raids. Granted we have one example of that not occuring with Angels loot of velks spell book - well - I don't think anyone wanted it that bad anyways.

So if another handfull vote and it means that we have to disenfranchise non TF from loots on TF raids - whatever. It won't bother the EX TF that raid with us - as they do it to help out. It won't bother the other friends that raid with us still if they come back after the first time we didn't offer them any loot opportunity.

This thread was just a long issue about something that hasn't been a problem and isn't likely to be a big one 95% of the time - if we delete that 5% of the time so be it. As to the result of the poll and change in guild policy... sure that is being discussed by the management you dodge being affiliated with.

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Number

Postby Goofydoofy » Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:19 am

Damn you people! Stop talking percentages! Your confusing me now!
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Postby Calthine Faeriesong » Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:41 am

Cal, are you arguing for my point or against it?


Didn't you mean Serano? I hadn't answered you.

The whole topic has seemed an irrelavent derail from the begining.
Completely agree. As far as I'm concerned, a couple of pages of discussion in Open got flamed by a non-member and the whole thing got blown way out of proportion. I've yet to see anything in this thread to indicate different, like an overwhelming majority.

if the management is looking to this vote for some help in deliberation
You started this poll, not us. I'm sure you were hoping for an overwhelming response that would inspire us.
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