Vote for DKP Change (regarding members vs. non-members)

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Should members be allowed to be outbid by non-members?

Yes
18
45%
No
22
55%
 
Total votes : 40

Postby Champion Flogger » Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:40 pm

Then maybe we shouldn't give points to non-members at all then? Or maybe call them reserve points? Recruit kitty?
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Postby Calthine Faeriesong » Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:51 pm

I just dont want to see the same shit happen AGAIN AND AGAIN, where we get fucked after working so hard. Period.


I would like to see one example where this happened with DKP.

NOT counting various folks who got geared/leveled/keyed and left.

Please show me. I still think that this is a fire over nothing whatsoever. NONE of the hypothetical situations that could happen have happened since we changed this a couple months ago.

Heck, most members weren't ever aware of the change, as they don't check out the boards.
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Postby sinadar » Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:21 pm

no matter what outcome ... i'll abide by and still encourage recruitment to carry us to further goals. I want the best for us.
I didn't expect this much debate but both sides has valuable points. :)

:starwars:

I don't want things to get out of control, and i dont want any problems with any players. I just want to have fun and play with friends.

BTW :thumbup to all our officers you guys (and gals) are doing a great job... Our numbers are growing. and wow Cal awesome job with all the pics

(i dont get to forums much, i'm too busy playing) hahaha, but i am working on it.
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Postby Calthine Faeriesong » Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:28 pm

wow Cal awesome job with all the pics


Gotta thank all the picture-takers who send 'em into me, too :)
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Postby Foklar » Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:00 am

I've seen a lot of doom posters who said that no non-TFers outbidding TFers mean less to no apps. That is one side of the coin. The other side is, since we don't wipe out a person's DKP total upon joining the guild, they could be able to win an item on their first raid as a TF member. How cool would that be? If we change our policy that TFers can not be outbid, we should also state that a guest who joins TF keeps their DKP total.

It's also been stated that people will bid 1 point on an item so non-TFers will be unable to get it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we not still a need before greed guild? If a TF member bids on an item, they should need it and be able to use it. Granted, this is hard to enforce. Heck, was hard to enforce. But I do believe we have a good core of people who won't abuse that aspect of the system.

To me, this vote is about there being some MEANING to having the tag above my name. While no one abuses our extremely friendly DKP policy right now, it is possible to be abused in the future, and would require changes like this anyway. This isn't about something bad having happened, but stopping it from ever happening.

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Edit: I've also seen a point that people who leave TF that get points at TF raids would be enticed to come back is kind of bull. Why would someone who can join an advance guild like AD or AE, and keep up with their raiding requirements, want to come back to us? We don't get the gear or content to entice those people back.
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hmm

Postby bill » Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:03 am

Was fun for me to drop a bomb of a post like this and then leave it alone all weekend.

Goof I have to admit, your poll was way more ludicrous than this hehe. But since you don't agree and can't possibly see where the other side is coming from, you mock it.

So many things I wanted to quote that I've heard that are just insane.

Ser, what you want is noble. I am going to selfishly say that I joined <Tribal Fury> and not <Mass Guild Raid>.

Cal, saying something has never happened therefore it won't ever happen is..not as farsighted as I would hope.

One thing I have really liked is that ppl acrue DKP while not guilded that they can spend once they are guilded. I hadn't thought of that but I really like it.

I have more thoughts but I am gonna just hold back because it would just be repeating what someone else already said.

I'll let the vote total show me how the guild really feels.
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Postby Calthine Faeriesong » Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:04 am

To me, this vote is about there being some MEANING to having the tag above my name


This statement saddens me. When did being in TF become all about Loots?
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heh

Postby bill » Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:45 am

Clearly our guests are all about the loots or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Postby Calthine Faeriesong » Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:55 am

Now where on earth are you reading that? Go look at DKP and tell me how many guests have spent points.

edit No wait, I'll do it. there are 91 people listed as "guest" on DKP. Of those, three are listed as having spent points. Of those Dracontar and Artok spent their points while still in the Guild. The guest with the most available points is Shalow at 28RP. Listed by number of RP, the top 50 people are all TF. Meaning anyone could outbid a guest. Even ME fer Tunare's sake.
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Postby beallzaman » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:25 am

The guest with the most available points is Shalow at 28RP. Listed by number of RP, the top 50 people are all TF. Meaning anyone could outbid a guest. Even ME fer Tunare's sake.

ok with that said then I don't really see the problem. All weekend I was thinking about this and I kinda have a hardcore oppinion on this issue. One I won't share with all you because it won't help/change anything. but for now if all the members have more points than the non-members do then they wont get out bid and there wont be a problem. So take that to the bank and cash it.
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Thread

Postby Goofydoofy » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:27 am

This thread continues to amuse me. And I thank you. Its really simple, as stated a thousand times before, you earn the points, you can spend the points you earned. I'm lost as to what the chatter is all about.
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Postby Fingor » Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:29 pm

Why would someone who can join an advance guild like AD or AE, and keep up with their raiding requirements, want to come back to us? We don't get the gear or content to entice those people back.


Strange you should say this. As a matter of fact, I had the offer to go join AE. I was told that I could be elemental flagged within a week. This offer came from the current leader of AE, who happens to be my Real Life Cousin. This is the person who got me into EQ in the first place, geared up my first char. So do I have some good incentive to go to AE, Sure. Did I go, NO. And why didn't I go, because I like the people in TF, I have no reason to leave.

So where am I going with this, I don't go to raids looking to get loot. Do I get loot sometimes, yes, I do. But for example, the shield I got in AR a few nights ago. I only bid 35, didn't really expect to get the shield, but strange things happen and i did, but i left plenty of room for someone to outbid me. Most know that I'm not a hard core raider. I go to the raids when I go, not to get loot, but to help the guild. The majority of raids I miss due to the late hours. Have I ever felt slighted because someone else won the bid, No, because everytime I lost a bid, I had points that I could have bid but didn't.

I've seen the argument that, well what about the people who don't get to raid that much? Well if you don't raid, you most likely won't be there to get the nice loot anyway. And if you never raid, then why do you need to get the nice loot. You can go to Bazaar and gear your char up pretty nicely. Which brings up the argument, I have no Plat to buy the nice gear. Well neither did I, but all my chars are geared pretty nicely. With bazaar anyone can get Plat.

So bottom line, if you are worried about being outbid by a guest, raid more.

What incentive do I have to join Tribal Fury?

Loot? SCREW LOOT.

Be with People who I like? Bingo.

I know that IF I have something that I need to get done, there are people I can call on that will not hesitate to help me.

So if no one can see my standing on the DKP issue, If you raided and got the points, everyone should be able to use them as they see fit. If you get outbid by a guest, how is that the guest fault? You can only point the finger at yourself, for not raiding more.
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hehe

Postby bill » Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:48 pm

OK Cal, I think you missed where I was going with my last post.

guests are all about the loots


If we are worried that our guests won't attend raids because they aren't awarded loot as a guild member would be...then we should take another look at our "friends".

That was my point. I also understand your point that we are discussing something that has never happened before. This is a fact.

This is also how the DKP policy was born, because that never happened before either.

Stop looking to the past for solutions to the future. Look to the future for solutions to the future.

Goof, I'm glad that you still can't comprehend what's going on, but feel free to continue posting that fact ;)

Fingor, your post makes plenty of good points. But there is one thing being glazed over.

We all want to be with our friends but that doesn't mean I will hang out with Vantage because I have some friends there.

Truth is, I don't like how they run their ship. THAT is pretty important to me. How they treat "their" players. As well as how they treat other guilds. I don't need to go further cuz we've already discussed those things.

My point with this is, there is much more to being in TF than hanging out with ppl in a chat room. Seriously. Personally, for me, I have the following short list:

Hang with friends
Be in a respectable gaming environment
Be fair to those in the guild and to be treated fairly
Advance my characters as well as help others advance
Experience new raiding content together

Its longer than that, but I feel those are pretty common amongst most TFers. I don't wanna start a thread of "why I am in TF.." so the issue is not about why we are here or what makes tribal fucking fury so awesome (goof's tittays) but how we treat our guests.

What's the difference between a guest and a member?

I think the above statement is what is really on trial here.

One side says there should be a difference and one side says there should be no difference. THAT is the debate here folks.

To ensure that <tribal fury> advances as opposed to alt_394 from EP_member_9023, a decision needs to be made now, for the future.

If gearing up ppl's alts from other guilds is part of tribal fury's progression then so be it, so sayeth the people.

What? You haven't voted? This is YOUR GUILD. Vote on this matter!
EDIT
changed some wording
Last edited by bill on Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Foklar » Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:50 pm

This statement saddens me. When did being in TF become all about Loots?


If you want to read into my words that way. Look at it from this angle...

I could be gulidless, and officer willing, keep my current raid schedule with TF, earning the same points, and bidding on the same items. So where is the benefit a full TF member would have over me? Zero. None. I'd be hanging out with the same people, able to chat with them in TFchat. Yadda, yadda, yadda.

And when you get down to it, all guilds are about loot. Loot is what defines what a guild can accomplish. A time geared guild is very different from a velious geared guild, even with the same levels and AAs.

Now, think for a minute what happens to a guild that is loosing a portion of its gear to guests. Suddenly, the guild starts slowing down and members leave for a guild that can take stuff without outside help.

Now where on earth are you reading that? Go look at DKP and tell me how many guests have spent points.


As I said in my last post, our DKP system hasn't been abused. I hope it never is abused. But I'm not so naive to trust that nobody ever will. There are some real winners out there just waiting to take advantage of whatever they can find.

Hey, the majority of the guild may feel it fair for guests to be able to outbid them and what-not. If that's what the majority of the guild wants, then fine. So be it. I know not everyone is going to agree with me.

Just keep in mind, I'm coming from the angle where I would like to see TF be self-sufficient once again, where we don't have to rely on guests to do a hit. They would be welcome as always, but not crucial to what we are attempting.

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Postby Goofydoofy » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:15 pm

Amused I say, Bill! Amused!!

:jester

I get it all, thanks. I just think that if you earn the points, you get to spend the points. TF or not. That is all I think on this subject. Nothing else matters. You raid with TF, in the guild or not, you earn the points and get to spend them. If somebody gets outbid by somebody not in TF, so what? Hit the next raid and hopefully you'll get the bid that time. Earn the points and spend them. In TF or not. Whats the problem? Then again, I say give me 5 points or 1 point for the last raid. I don't care as long as its the same for everyone. Key here is everyone. In TF or not. If your outside TF and help TF, you deserve to share in the rewards. If somebody can handle their own guild raiding schedule and meet ours also, so what? I've had other guilds take me along on their raids. I've shared in their flags and loots. Hey, I helped them out and got rewarded for it. Sometimes I didn't even help out. I was just there and got a reward. Stop being so greedy and share what is rightfully others if they have the points.

Its the opposite kind of thinking that some other guilds have and deny helping the little guy (Us) with anything. No help with killing SSRA Emp, no help in getting PoP flags we can't get ourselves, no help with getting GoD flags or anything else for that matter. Those people say, fuck them, they aren't in our guild. Let them do it themselves. These are the non-helpful people who think only about themselves. I don't only think about myself. I help anybody (Except most of Vantage) almost anytime. I don't wanna be the "Fuck them, they aren't in our guild" person. I'm better then that.
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