Vote for DKP Change (regarding members vs. non-members)

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Should members be allowed to be outbid by non-members?

Yes
18
45%
No
22
55%
 
Total votes : 40

Postby Aboobaka » Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:20 pm

I highly doubt it, and that's why we do.
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Postby sinadar » Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:31 am

Thanks to all those that participated in replying to my opinion..
I am only looking out for the guild... Dont take me wrong or hate me for my opinions, in the case of family guild i need to know where i stand as a family.... cuz i tried to follow some ex-members and i myself left the guild to follow some i respected... but where they went they made me feel unwanted. (this is not a pity me story)... but in the case of who is who... I am here to support the guild... not those that left the guild and can out bid a so called family member.
As to the comments to if a non member who raids more than a member should have have the priveledge to out bid a member because they are there more.... well that also leaves that a member who cant always make the raids because they may benefit a different time zone.. the member should not be punished because he dont attend as many raids.

also i would like to mention that i dont feel threatened... i attend enough raids to have the points to out bid any guest. i am only looking out for those that may come into a situation to not feel like they are important enough to STAY with TF.... Obviously TF couldnt give them what they wanted and ppl left... they shouldnt be rewarded over someone who is current
and in the above statement... i recant a little about not feeling threatened... but lets say theoretically i go on a raid and bid the majority of my DKP points on an item i thought was worth getting... then turn around and raid the next night and bid on another item with my remaining raid points but get out bid by an ex-member even by 1 point is stating that a friend in another guild is more important then me, who wants to be a part of a family....
I have issues ... and docters and pills may help :help i admit :)
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Postby sinadar » Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:07 am

PS I want to say i am not being greedy either... i am supportive to let items go to someone who can use it than see it rot...

Its been stated:
You leave guild (0 points whiped) even if mistakenly /G**ldremove
You join anyother guild and raid with TF you gain DKP
You can out bid any member no matter what guild your in
You leave your old guild and join TF you keep guest DKP as member
(Correct me if i am wrong)
I am also not stating that we just RAID with TF ONLY.... i encourage ppl to join us and maybe group up with another guild or 2 to obtain our goals, there should be something in there when it comes to loot when raiding with a similar strength guild to share... seeing its fair to have both advance if those purposes are met.

and then end result is it doesnt really matter what i think... i control nothing but my own actions... apparently its important enough to some ppl to let there friends that left the guild to advance their game and still profit by helping us .... Sure but not over a fellow guild member

all this came about by a lil paranoia... Sorry but i have some hard feelings about some ex members... Should I be Dissed again cuz they still have power over me even in their new guild where i WASNT welcome to join with them?? ... but they can and have the right to outbid me in this guild... for all i know some of them are in still in this guild... how can i tell?? :boxing
oh well its late and i will try to hit it up again tomorrow to just see what is said. thanks to those that share somwhat of my feelings and if i sound confusing it's cuz i am tired and not thinking fully of what i am typing :)
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Postby Aboobaka » Sat Aug 07, 2004 2:19 am

Don't worry Sin, we figure if anybody non TF raids more than a TF member to gain that many points, they will undoubtedly become TF. This is more of an attraction tool than a screw the TF member policy and we all hope it works. It seems to be somewhat, but we need a little more time with it to see.
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Postby Zyzzerzazz » Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:13 pm

as of now I vote to ( no ) ,

I say that they may aquire points as a non-member, but not spend them untill they become tagged.

I would have a very hard time seeing a TF lose a bid to any non-TF.

I see the Off's theory here but I think that the atcual motovation to be tagged is lost as soon as you reward them with loot.

Get their attention by offering points, then reel them in by not letting the points be used b4 tagging.


Personally i see this whole attraction as the WRONG way to get ppl in thhe guild.

Sorry, but pure material gain is not going to build a strong and loyal membership basis that we seek.

I can see someone raiding 3 stright weeks with us, then blow all points on a $ drop and never be seen again.

What did that do for the guild? Have a hardcore raider for 3 weeks, then be gone?

Long-term benifit = poor
Short-term benifit = strong

Hope this helps....
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Postby Serano » Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:18 pm

you guys just don't get it. By cutting off guests from a potential for loot you disenfranchise our peers.

If your preceious DKP points and loot are more important than the equal treatment of our fellows that raid with us - then you are limiting who will want to play with us. You want to lead an event where you tell the guests that aren't tagged - hey thanks for comming, OH loot - no you only get table scraps. I don't.

Who are you people?
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Postby Zyzzerzazz » Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:46 pm

i agree that this is very forward thinking Serano, but i beleive that the disenfranchising of our peers takes presadence over our own members.

I dont like DKP and never will, I say GOD loot everything. But........Make sure that the Loot Off's are dedicated to the same path of non-partisen guild progress.

Otherwise,

Non-members should not get anything. Plain and simple. You want to raid with us awesome, some day you should join us.

Untill then, the guild works hard to prepare, organize, and lead a raid of any kind.

I have never hurd of anoyne doing this and if otherwise I would love to research it.

BELEIVE me, I have no problem with any outcome of this, and I will be with TF no matter what comes. I just want to make sure we are all on the same page when it comes to why the policy was established.



If I may ask another question?

Is recruitment the theme underlying behind this?

Or is it that the Off think that TF should set at standard of ethics pertaining to loot and pick-up raids / guests?
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Postby Bilnick » Sat Aug 07, 2004 2:21 pm

Well there are some good points made on both sides of this arguement, but ultimately to advance I think we need to award points to guests.

Take a possible Manatec Behemoth or Terris Thule hit, we probably have no shot at winning these encounters with the numbers we have (30-35 TF). Say we invite Fellowship of Mooo along and they bring 12 people and we beat TT, should they not be rewarded for helping us? Especially if they contribute 20-30% of the raid force? If awarding points to guests helps us form alliances or possible mergers, I am all for it.

Lets face it, until Omens of War comes out and we have a dozen or so level 70 toons, we probably will not be able to take some of the big mobs with just TF.
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Postby Serano » Sat Aug 07, 2004 2:54 pm

Non-members should not get anything. Plain and simple. You want to raid with us awesome, some day you should join us.

Or is it that the Off think that TF should set at standard of ethics pertaining to loot and pick-up raids / guests?


Just because other guilds are collections of people out for them selves motivated by greed doesn't mean that I am zyzz.

Setting the standard? I DON"T CARE ABOUT THE OTHER GUILDS. THIS is TF, my home on the net.
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Postby Rozy » Sat Aug 07, 2004 3:00 pm

i personally have never liked dkp for the simple reason it causes problems for everyone, cuz someone can find a way they feel it is wrong. that is why i have always liked the god system. but that is just me....I go along with what the guild chooses.
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Postby Serano » Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:27 pm

you guys just dont' know. DKP causeing problems? other than this friendlly discusion of guidl direction DKP solved problems. Before DKP we had ran and joint events. that randomly progresses the people at your events. Then we switched to god loot. THAT had problems. people were upset when they disagreed with the god. Being the god sucks. There is no "right" formula to decide who gets the next loot. If it was all your characters in a single player game you can build the right chars. but if you god loot to build the dream team - someone leaves. If you spread it out - you loot to someone that other people didn't think were in the running. God loot sucked.
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Postby Zyzzerzazz » Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:48 pm

You are completley wright Boss. On that I agree. This is alot of pplz home on thenet Serano.

Greed is not my inclination tho, neither is Guild Elietism ( sp ? )

I want to see TF have GREAT relations with others, I just dont want to see the same shit happen AGAIN AND AGAIN, where we get fucked after working so hard. Period.

I guess I may have been out to the loop too long to see the position that the guild has taken in accordance with other guilds and their work effort WITH Tribal Fury.

/shrug


I will stfu now because I think I have already made my point.
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Postby kunglao » Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:48 pm

haven't voted yet, but I like Zyzz's idea. Let guests earn points, but they must wait until they are tagged to use them. People raid with us for a chance to see content they couldn't otherwise see with their own guild, or more often, they are old TF'ers comin along to help (in the case of the latter, most of the loot we'll see won't be much of an upgrade for them, if any, and they're just there to hang with old friends and help out.). So not counting the ex-TF'ers, the reward our guests get is the chance to see new content. Let them earn points. As they raid more, they may see what we can do, and how much fun we have doing it. There is the motivation to get a TF tag under their name. Honestly, I don't know if any guests have complained about not getting loot, but if they did, I'm not sure I'd want them to keep coming.

They are guests .... they asked to join us for a raid. They didn't ask, "Hey, can I join you guys so I can get loot ?" No, they said, "Sounds like fun, mind if I tag along ?"

So what if they get table scraps, they got something, didn't they ? They are doing something they don't normally get to do. To me, that's reward enough.
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Postby Champion Flogger » Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:59 pm

The first thing I'd like to say at this time is that we need to open our minds a bit. We are getting to the point where two strong opinions could cause more conflict in the ranks than we would like.

Serano, I do see your side of things. At least, I see where you want TF to stand out as a good example. My counter to that would be that we already do. Other than maybe Vantage, I can think of no guild that has any beef with us. So, my question to you is, Why such a strong push on this? Have you had a specific complaint or incidence to spark such passionate debate on the issue?

Zyzz, to say that non-members get nothing is an awful finite and extreme statement. While I lean toward members getting preference, I still know that there are times when our members won't need an item and it should go to someone that can use it.

Bilnick, you have a good point on using a second guild for numbers on a bit hit. This is why I set the invitation guidelines on the Behemoth raid. If we invite Moo or AE or any other guild in it's entirety, then I can see where loot may need to be done differently. However, to invite specific people to come with us serves them as a learning experience and good time. If I were invited to another guild's raid as an individual, I would not expect loot. If TF were invited, I would expect the officers to pre-negotiate loot guidelines.

Serano wrote:If your preceious DKP points and loot are more important than the equal treatment of our fellows that raid with us - then you are limiting who will want to play with us
I respectfully disagree. If someone is attending our raid, and we present ourselves well, they should want to join us for our skill and the hope to obtain such items in the future with a TF tag. Anyone that would complain or not raid with us based on not getting loot as a non-member is most likely the one that is too focused on loot. Do we want someone like that in our guild? I believe we limit loot whores this way, not quality people that we want. And for those former TF that come help on occasion; Do you think they expect or want our loot?

So, how do we empower our guild without slighting others? Tough question. I would like to think that we hit the mob again (and again if needed.) Once our members are geared, we can hit the mob again with those same guests and they will have a chance at loot. It's that extra effort that will make us look good.

EDIT: My long posting made me miss Kung and Ser's last posts. Kung, I completely agree. Ser, there are always issues with ANY loot system. You'll never please everyone. I was against DKP at the start, but since that is our system currently, I want to see it work for those that are loyal to TF. That's not elitism, that's fair treatment to our family.
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Postby Goofydoofy » Sat Aug 07, 2004 5:34 pm

I find it funny that some of you people want to deny someone the right to bid for raid loot with raid points they earned. In TF or not.
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