The first thing I'd like to say at this time is that we need to open our minds a bit. We are getting to the point where two strong opinions could cause more conflict in the ranks than we would like.
Serano, I do see your side of things. At least, I see where you want TF to stand out as a good example. My counter to that would be that we already do. Other than maybe Vantage, I can think of no guild that has any beef with us. So, my question to you is, Why such a strong push on this? Have you had a specific complaint or incidence to spark such passionate debate on the issue?
Zyzz, to say that non-members get nothing is an awful finite and extreme statement. While I lean toward members getting preference, I still know that there are times when our members won't need an item and it should go to someone that can use it.
Bilnick, you have a good point on using a second guild for numbers on a bit hit. This is why I set the invitation guidelines on the Behemoth raid. If we invite Moo or AE or any other guild in it's entirety, then I can see where loot may need to be done differently. However, to invite specific people to come with us serves them as a learning experience and good time. If I were invited to another guild's raid as an individual, I would not expect loot. If TF were invited, I would expect the officers to pre-negotiate loot guidelines.
Serano wrote:If your preceious DKP points and loot are more important than the equal treatment of our fellows that raid with us - then you are limiting who will want to play with us
I respectfully disagree. If someone is attending our raid, and we present ourselves well, they should want to join us for our skill and the hope to obtain such items in the future with a TF tag. Anyone that would complain or not raid with us based on not getting loot as a non-member is most likely the one that is too focused on loot. Do we want someone like that in our guild? I believe we limit loot whores this way, not quality people that we want. And for those former TF that come help on occasion; Do you think they expect or want our loot?
So, how do we empower our guild without slighting others? Tough question. I would like to think that we hit the mob again (and again if needed.) Once our members are geared, we can hit the mob again with those same guests and they will have a chance at loot. It's that extra effort that will make us look good.
EDIT: My long posting made me miss Kung and Ser's last posts. Kung, I completely agree. Ser, there are always issues with ANY loot system. You'll never please everyone. I was against DKP at the start, but since that is our system currently, I want to see it work for those that are loyal to TF. That's not elitism, that's fair treatment to our family.