INTRESTING LINK GOOD READ

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INTRESTING LINK GOOD READ

Postby dkofklove » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:03 am

VERY GOOD READ MAKES YOU THINK

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazin ... w_eno.html

LET THE DEBATE BEGIN
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Re: INTRESTING LINK GOOD READ

Postby Bilnick » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:18 am

Hehe this article is 5 years old......


Europeans tend to regard free national health services, unemployment benefits, social housing and so on as pretty good models of human progress. We think it's important — civilized, in fact — to help people who fall through society's cracks.


As long as you are a citizen.....and in some European countries citizenship is not exactly easy to get. (from what I understand, correct me if I am mistaken)

In America we give those benefits to people who are in the country illegally! And any children the illegals have in the US are automatically citizens....

I think the biggest social issue facing the US is its immigration issues. Once those are straightened out a national healthcare plan can be worked on. I think eventually it will be the republicans who spearhead a national healthcare plan, as businesses in the US will demand it to remain globally competitive.
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Re: INTRESTING LINK GOOD READ

Postby Areo » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:32 am

To many Americans, this sounds like socialism, big government, the nanny state. But so what?


This guy is an idiot. You start down that path, where does it end? Socialism? Ya I want the communist regime telling my children exactly who their going to be when they grow up.
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Re: INTRESTING LINK GOOD READ

Postby Meso » Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:10 pm

This guy is an idiot. You start down that path, where does it end? Socialism? Ya I want the communist regime telling my children exactly who their going to be when they grow up

Lol, there is a very very long path between socialism and a communist regime.
And corrupt, inept government comes in many flavors . . . even republican
Go ahead, keep on listening to Rush . . .
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Re: INTRESTING LINK GOOD READ

Postby Ceruis » Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:29 pm

Free national health care is a myth. I'd hate to see what the tax rates are for the European states. If I remember from Germany correctly it was something over 50% of their pay. You might as well not work at all since it isn't your money and you'll still get the free health care, except this time it will actually be free. Healthcare, if there is to be some government control should be managed on the local level since it there that they have the clearest idea of what they need. :cheers
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Re: INTRESTING LINK GOOD READ

Postby bill » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:23 pm

Norway is 80% taxes. Also, rated one of the best places in the entire world to live in.

Socialism? You're living it right now.
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Re: INTRESTING LINK GOOD READ

Postby dkofklove » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:43 pm

now to answer a few questions its not hard to get citizen ship in europe just grab a boat go to britan hide a few years bingo some idiot gives you passport. communism socialism hmm if not for greed and lazy buggers, could work. sadly the human state is such that it will never work we are after all inherantly greedy. that is not to say that they do not have some very good ideals just that we humans are not ready to enbrace it fully. dont cherry pick comments as a whole the article does highlight some very intresting points, not just for america but for all nations. democracy hmm i live in the uk we do not have true democracy most of you live in the us your democracy is equally flawed your flaw is money wins elections ours is that our system is inherantly flawed, so that the party with the least over all votes per head of population can still win. some day we may both achieve true democracy but thats just time and hopefully some enlightened policy makers for a change.

you cant force democracy on people, they have to actaly want it and right now in my country atleast to many cant even be bothered votting what does that say about us sigh.

tax rates hmm take a look at your wages now, deduct your tax now take your food costs (which i assume are taxed) , and everything else you get taxed on now calculate your actual tax dont forget fuel land local taxes for services dental insurance etc you will find your tax is in reality not far of ours ( ps ok our fuel taxes are stupid). i worked out with all taxes i lose 45-55% of wages, but i get a very good health service, dentists, a nanny state (ok that [isses me off), a reasinable education system (wish was back in scotland uni is free there i miss home), and yet ave enough money npot to stress to much.
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Re: INTRESTING LINK GOOD READ

Postby Hilf » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:23 pm

did any of you know that America is part socialist? Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid ring any bells? After the Stock Market crash in 1930 FDR put over 100 socialist programs in effect to help the people, most of which are still in effect today.
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Re: INTRESTING LINK GOOD READ

Postby Ceruis » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:15 pm

Hilf wrote:did any of you know that America is part socialist? Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid ring any bells? After the Stock Market crash in 1930 FDR put over 100 socialist programs in effect to help the people, most of which are still in effect today.


All of which squader an obsence amount of money for little practical good. I guess the saying I'm looking for is Great Idea, Poor Execution.

dkofklove wrote:tax rates hmm take a look at your wages now, deduct your tax now take your food costs (which i assume are taxed) , and everything else you get taxed on now calculate your actual tax dont forget fuel land local taxes for services dental insurance etc you will find your tax is in reality not far of ours ( ps ok our fuel taxes are stupid). i worked out with all taxes i lose 45-55% of wages, but i get a very good health service, dentists, a nanny state (ok that [isses me off), a reasinable education system (wish was back in scotland uni is free there i miss home), and yet ave enough money npot to stress to much.


The issue for me is that they take all the decision making processes out of people hands and put it into the hands of some impersonal system that doesn't give a damn about anything because it ain't personal. It makes people less reliant on themselves and more reliant on Big Brother for things they should be taking care of. And a flat standard over an area as deversed as the USA isn't going to cut it. You can't tell me that Washington know more about Small Town American or L.A. needs than they do themselves.
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Re: INTRESTING LINK GOOD READ

Postby Hilf » Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:40 pm

All of which squader an obsence amount of money for little practical good. I guess the saying I'm looking for is Great Idea, Poor Execution.


no was great idea + great execution + horribly awful follow through. It worked for a while until people started living til 80 and 90 years old and living in hospitals draining the money from the funds. Im all for restricted age limit of 72!
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Re: INTRESTING LINK GOOD READ

Postby Bilnick » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:18 am

Dkofklove wrote:tax rates hmm take a look at your wages now, deduct your tax now take your food costs (which i assume are taxed)


I don't think I pay 40-45% of my wages to taxes like you do DK, but I bet it is not that far off if I stopped to add it all up.

Food is not taxed, at least in the state I live in.

In the state I live in we have a 6% sales tax on all goods (excluding food) and some services. Sales tax varies from state to state.

Every gallon of gasoline has a tax in addition to the sales tax. Gas tax varies from state to state. There is a Federal gas tax also. I think in Michigan the gas tax totals around 40 cents a gallon.

I pay a state income tax on top of Federal income tax. Some states have no income tax. Some cities in the US have a tax. For instance Detroit has a 1.5% income tax for anyone working in Detroit, and also a 1.5% tax for anyone living in Detroit. If you live and work in Detroit I think you "only" pay 2%.

Everyone who earns a legal paycheck pays Social Security and Medicare, regardless of income. Lower income people generally pay little to no income tax though, really low income people actually get paid extra (Earned Income Credit) so they actually have a negative income tax rate.

My household income put our family in a tax bracket that was over 30% (33% I think, I would have to look) but when all my deductions and credits were figured in, my "real" income tax rate was around 18%.
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Re: INTRESTING LINK GOOD READ

Postby Areo » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:24 pm

Oerin wrote:Lol, there is a very very long path between socialism and a communist regime.
And corrupt, inept government comes in many flavors . . . even republican
Go ahead, keep on listening to Rush . . .


"The journey of a thousand miles starts with just one step." And we're already well on our way down that path.

Yes corruption comes in all forms. The best system in the world can be ran terribly by the worst of people and the worst system can be made to work by the best of people. I just feel like socialism/communism breeds laziness. Why work when everything is provided to me and the harder I work the more the government takes from me to give to people who don't want to work.

Taking care of the poor should be left to the people who really care. Give them incentives and money and really enable your churches and local community outreach people who have a vested interest in making their communities better. Not give someone a government job, thats hard to get fired from and who really doesn't give a damn about the people their supposed to be helping.
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Re: INTRESTING LINK GOOD READ

Postby Sothran » Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:23 pm

Hate me if you want, but there are many things in this article that I must agree with, and if you will examine the situation from outside of the box, you would probably agree also. America has this unflintching persistance about demanding to do things "the american way" no matter who stupid that way may be. There are alot of ideals and practices of the American way of life that could benifit many civilized foreign areas in the world, but that coin has two sides. The opposite side of the coin, the foreign ideals that America could benifit from, are refused and most often ignored. Hell, a simple enough example of american arrogance is the standard measurment system. Most of the civilized world uses metric, which coming from an engineering standpoint, is so much easier to use. Base 10 system, simple conversions, but along come the American's and we have to do it our own bloody way. 5280 feet in a mile? Where the hell does something like that come from. What it all really boils down to is Independence. Not the independence from tyranny or whatnot, but that need to have our own "American Way".


I spent a good deal of time working in the health care industry, pharmacuticals more specifically, and I have been priveledged enough to actually see our tax dollars at work. Its entire families, 3 and 4 generations on welfare, and no care in the world to fix it because its a free meal. They cart their children off to the emergency room for every little sniffle they have, with no regard to the fact that ER visits carry a cost 10 to 20 times that of a doctors visit. Why you might ask? Why should they care what it costs, they dont have to pay for it. This is just one of many examples of the evolution of the "American" way of life.


Now there was some mention earlier in the discussion here about governmental differences, such as the displacement of the burden of decesion in European government away from the people. The ONLY difference between that government and our American government is that the American government is caught up in a endless war. The people in this country have 1 chance to make decisions in our national government, and that rolls around every 4 years during the presidential elections, after that, whoever wins does whatever the hell they want with little to no regard for the opinion of the public they "serve" (and this is shown by the government in power right now). I really like to hope our situation cant get any worse, but hell, there is still a few months left in our current administrations term to get us into a war with Iran, or hell, Canada or someone, whoever he feels like picking a fight with next.


Now for all our problems, we still have one of the best places in the world to live, but lets face some facts about our american way of life. As of the start of this year, we have better than 2.3 million people in jail in this country. 2.3 million. ( http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/2/28/125222/655 ) Ofcourse all our guns in this country are a boon to our existence. All compiled statistical data involving gun releated deaths, including homicide, suicide, and accidental shooting, all Americans can stand proudly at our freedoms which helped us along to snagging the #1 slot at 14.24 gun related deaths per 100 thousand population. Proud to be an american. Scotland came in at 0.54 per 100k, England and Wales at 0.41 ( http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/ ... lekey=6166 ) Wow all our guns are doing a hell of a job protecting us.


Even if we dont want to admit it, our country with our 20,730,000 bbl/day of oil consumption is quite likely one of the leading causes of oil problems in the world today. Some people I know have argued that our size is the cause of that consumption, but China only uses 6,534,000 bbl/day, roughly 1/3 of our usage. Their population on the other hand is a bit better than 4 times our size. ( http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_o ... onsumption ) It has nothing to do with our size, or our distance of seperation on cities and towns. It deals with asshats that feel the need, and entitlement, to drive their Humvee's 30 miles each way to work with 1 person in the car. It has to do with the American desire to turn our noses up at public transportation, as if it were beneath us. It has to do with us needing everything to be bigger, better, and faster than the rest of the world because we are Americans and thus we are entitled to it.


We parade around the world like we are going to pass freedom and democracy on trading cards. Democracy is some kind of governmental system which is hyptothetically based on the free choice of the people in whom that government represents. With that being said, we start wars, to "provide the oppressed people of the world with freedom and democracy". How do you force free choice on a population? That boils down to american arrogance, and its just a repeat of the crusaids by the church. Wars being fought because people dont wanna do it our way. Pure arrogance.

All things being considered, I still live in a great country. I have family here, but if I did not, I would probably try to relocate to England or Germany, somewhere I feel has a more forward way of thinking than we do here. Never the less, even if we dont want to admit it, we get aggervated in this country because of the way other countries handle their affairs, but the problem really is that, these other places, are not refusing to change. Other countries around the world are changing with the times and infact it is the US that is refusing to change.


O well, I have rambled on and on, apoligies for any spelling errors, I didnt take time to check my work, just being American about it.
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Re: INTRESTING LINK GOOD READ

Postby Hilf » Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:46 pm

Sothran wrote:I spent a good deal of time working in the health care industry, pharmacuticals more specifically, and I have been priveledged enough to actually see our tax dollars at work. Its entire families, 3 and 4 generations on welfare, and no care in the world to fix it because its a free meal. They cart their children off to the emergency room for every little sniffle they have, with no regard to the fact that ER visits carry a cost 10 to 20 times that of a doctors visit. Why you might ask? Why should they care what it costs, they dont have to pay for it. This is just one of many examples of the evolution of the "American" way of life.


i agree with this, i had to go to the emergency room 2 months ago after dislocating my thigh bone from my pelvis and tore a bunch of muscles and i ended up waiting for 4 hours from midnight to 4am because a bunch of families on welfare had members with colds.

Sothran wrote:Now for all our problems, we still have one of the best places in the world to live, but lets face some facts about our american way of life. As of the start of this year, we have better than 2.3 million people in jail in this country. 2.3 million. ( http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/2/28/125222/655 ) Ofcourse all our guns in this country are a boon to our existence. All compiled statistical data involving gun releated deaths, including homicide, suicide, and accidental shooting, all Americans can stand proudly at our freedoms which helped us along to snagging the #1 slot at 14.24 gun related deaths per 100 thousand population. Proud to be an american. Scotland came in at 0.54 per 100k, England and Wales at 0.41 ( http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/ ... lekey=6166 ) Wow all our guns are doing a hell of a job protecting us.


I dont agree with you on this part because this country before it was america was founded on violence. Native American tribes fought the European Settlers for almost 600 years and then the Colonies fought Europe and then fought each other. With this history of violence does it really surprise you at the gun rates and criminals. Also the gun death article showed Mexico and Brazil also with the US as the top 3 countries. Compare each of those 3 countries with the ones you listed. How much LARGER are these 3 countries than Scotland and England. It's soooooooooo much easier to enforce laws on a smaller population. I couldnt find anything on china but i would imagine the stifling government keeps most of its citizens from purchasing weapons. I bet you couldnt even buy a gun there unless it was on the black market. Japan which has one of the highest populations vs land size ( i hope that makes sense) has one of the lowest gun death rates because the law enforcement there raids anyone who they suspect has a gun. That conflicts with American laws especially the Right to Bear Arms. So you cant fairly compare gun death rates unless you compare rights as a citizen first in other countries. I live in one of the worst crime cities in America in Phoenix, after Chicago, NYC, LA, and New Orleans, but I have never once seen a murder or crime commited unless it was underage drinking, drugs, or a traffic law broken.

Sothran wrote:The people in this country have 1 chance to make decisions in our national government, and that rolls around every 4 years during the presidential elections


thats a false statement. They get to vote for 1 president every 4 years sure. But they also get to vote for Senators once every 6 years and house reps once every 2 years. Dont forget those members of congress have a say in the matter too. It just sucks that most of them are in 1 of 2 different parties.
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Re: INTRESTING LINK GOOD READ

Postby Bilnick » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:08 am

We parade around the world like we are going to pass freedom and democracy on trading cards. Democracy is some kind of governmental system which is hyptothetically based on the free choice of the people in whom that government represents. With that being said, we start wars, to "provide the oppressed people of the world with freedom and democracy". How do you force free choice on a population? That boils down to american arrogance, and its just a repeat of the crusaids by the church. Wars being fought because people dont wanna do it our way. Pure arrogance.


I might agree with this if it were 1960........


Hilf is right. There are National elections every two years to elect members of congress. Congress writes any laws and all government expenditures. The President just gives final approval. Obviously the power of a Presidential veto is huge, but the fact still remains that any budget surplus or deficit lies with congress ultimately. Nothing says they couldn't play hardball and not send the President anything less than a balanced budget. We have Democrats in power in both bodies of congress and a lame duck president, yet the budget will produce the largest deficit ever, yet people still place all the blame on the president. I thought Nancy Pelosi was going to fix everything and play hardball with W?


As far as oil goes.....it is still very cheap. It is just the rapid rise in prices that has shocked everyone. If gasoline had doubled in price over the course of two years instead of 2-3 months people would have hardly noticed. It drives me nuts when people say they cannot afford to go on a 500 mile trip due to the price of gasoline.....as they drink their bottled water or Starbucks coffee. For most households the amount of money they spend on gasoline is actually pretty small. I read somewhere (no I don't have a link) that most Americans drive less than 22 miles a day, so for most people that would be $4-7 dollars a day. Big deal. I still believe we should be working on alternative energy sources though, because even though we will never run out of oil, it makes sense to develop other sources. Wind, solar, nuclear etc.....
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