NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Worff » Tue May 20, 2008 6:45 pm

Yeah most stuff (aside from FFA and rot and some 0's) has always been entered into the DKP system... it's been kept extremely accurate over the years by tedious careful attention. FFA and 0 bid stuff does not qualify as a sale, thus does not have to be entered, it's loot officer's choice on entering those as far as I see it. This does NOT mean our system hasn't been kept accurate because we didn't enter rot loot, etc... it technically is not a sale involved in our economy and doesn't matter whatsoever.

As long as an item gets bid on, it's definately going to get entered into DKP and become part of that item's history. If the item ends up going for 0, FFA, rot, whatever... it's no longer necessary to enter that value into the same equation as above. You have all the history you need prior to it getting played out. So still I feel it's loot officer's choice whether to make those entries or not.

Btw our DKP system doesn't need much "improvement"... it's been kept working well for quite a long time... most small changes we make are for management reasons but also a rare change occasionally to keep bidding in line with content and our numbers. Most guilds do this from time to time... it is nothing out of the ordinary... so relax.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Bilnick » Tue May 20, 2008 7:02 pm

Actually our loot distribution has changed/evolved quite a bit in the 5 years I have been in TF.

TF was a god loot system when I joined.
It went to DKP shortly after, bidding was done blind.
We used to reward DKP per kill for quite a while.
Raidleaders had more freedom in offering bonus DKP back then. (I recall a 10 DKP NToV raid bonus). We had on time bonuses, etc.
We shiffted to hourly DKP 2-3 years ago.
We added and revised restrictions to alts and boxes.

I like our current system better than any previous, but it has continuously evolved, for sure. I like hearing ideas for improvement. Everything can use improvement in my opinion.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Koromir » Tue May 20, 2008 11:27 pm

Bilnick wrote:FFA/Rot/0DKP were not always recorded before. Sometimes I did, sometimes not. Maybe I recorded Urtasil's alt pally getting the 8th BoFF from Anguish, maybe not. Some of the Ancient runes and 2.0 Globes were recorded, but after a while they were FFA status and I probably didn't. Never saw it as a big deal either way. Only one loot from Frostcrypt that I know of went for 0 DKP (Magimay's DRU only range item) and I think I entered that. Some Obsidian Runes I have combined. (ie if Mesomeso won 3 runes for 1 dkp each, I only entered one for 3 DKP) I didn't realize anyone was that interested in 0/1 DKP loot.

I think one of the ideas Zyzz and I threw around was to have a 5 (for example) DKP min bid for all loot. Any loot that didn't get a minimum bid would be available for alts and boxes to random on. I think that was in exchange for boxes and alts never earning DKP (or being allowed to bid DKP), but I could be wrong on the details and whose idea was whose. I like this idea alot personally. It would hopefully end any requested/non requested box/alt earning DKP stuff. People who wanted to box could bring them to the raid (as long as there was room) and would be on equal footing with the boxes that can cast SHM buffs or CLR heals.

After reading all the posts the 1 DKP minimum bid change is really not very much change at all. But it looks like it at least has us talking about ways to improve our DKP system.


I really do love the idea of making a 5 dkp minimum bid and only allowing bots/alts to get the stuff that didn't get a minimum bid. Mains competing with bots for loot has really always bothered me. I'll be honest, I was more than happy to spend 21 dkp on my Beltron hammer because i've wanted it for a long time to replace my epic. I would be lying though if I wasn't a little upset about getting bidded up by a bot, to me bots should only get loot that no mains were willing to buy but of course with the 0 dkp bids there was no way anything would really ever rot unless it was a class item and everyone that could use already had one. Yeah, I know this isn't something that is probably wanted but I still wanted to take the opportunity to get my opinion out on that subject. Who knows, maybe someday we'll go that route.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Worff » Wed May 21, 2008 1:05 am

Bilnick wrote:TF was a god loot system when I joined.
It went to DKP shortly after, bidding was done blind.
We used to reward DKP per kill for quite a while.
Raidleaders had more freedom in offering bonus DKP back then. (I recall a 10 DKP NToV raid bonus). We had on time bonuses, etc.
We shiffted to hourly DKP 2-3 years ago.
We added and revised restrictions to alts and boxes.


Exactly what I'm saying we've kept it working good for a long time... and we have it all really fine tuned IMO... so really not much left to improve except little stuff like we've been doing lately. The drastic changes slowed down over the years as shown in your timeline.. last major change was 2-3 years ago.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Naiin » Thu May 22, 2008 3:31 pm

Zyzzerzazz wrote:Bidding Zero on an item is not a bid, its calling dibs.

Naiin I detest your claims of officer rigged bids and owe you a full /bonk...sounds like a good job for Clarr :)




So I guess it wasnt YOU in DEC, in Demi that organized a strategy to get the Demi Cleric hammer for 0 DKP in a private chat channel? I guess I was friggin hallucenating when I looked over the 2 feet to my wife's screen... (by the way letting Irish get hers first then never log in again was a stroke of brilliance since Clarr didnt get to get hers... )

Just as a FYI forms of Bid Rigging according to those of us that speak English:

Bid Suppression: Bid suppression occurs where some of the conspirators agree not to submit a bid so that another conspirator can successfully win the contract.

Bid rotation: Bid Rotation occurs where the bidders take turns being the designated successful bidder, for example, each conspirator is designated to be the successful bidder on certain contracts, with conspirators designated to win other contracts. This is a form of market allocation, where the conspirators allocate or apportion markets, products, customers or geographic territories among themselves, so that each will get a "fair share" of the total business, without having to truly compete with the others for that business.

I cant think of a western country that wont punish you for these acts.... it defeats the purpose of bidding entirely as it eliminates any costs/risk. Rationalize it how you choose, but the practice is called bid-rigging and Ill stand by my statement:

I find it distasteful.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Bilnick » Thu May 22, 2008 3:43 pm

This practice only works if ALL parties involved agree to the arrangement. The way I see it anyone who participated in such an arrangement is no more or less responsible than anyone else.

Only one cleric had to disagree and bid on the item in question, OR speak up in the first place and decline to take part in such an arrangement.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby EQIsenhart » Thu May 22, 2008 4:04 pm

Naiin, if Clarr had a problem with that we should have dealt with it back in December...it's a little late now. What good does coming 6 months later and throwing this issue, something vastly different than what this policy is trying to do, up going to accomplish? What is your goal?

This very issue came up later, but someone chose to speak up and we dealt with it...I would like to direct both your attention to this thread.

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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Naiin » Thu May 22, 2008 4:11 pm

The problem is that:


An officer (the GL at that!!) colluded with ANYONE to bid rig (yeah thats what its called) and now wants to pretend its ok.... its never ok... and Clarr doesnt give a shit about the hammer anymore.


Just pointing out why Bid Rigging sucks and used my wife as an example of someone who got "left out" and I bet there are others in the future if its allowed. You cant fix it now.... but can we at least talk about the future in a manner that actually reflects real situations?
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Ranjaling » Thu May 22, 2008 4:31 pm

Aithzar wrote:My discussion is about the fact that 0 bid loots that are awarded on Scheduled DKP Raids are now being entered into the Items Tracking and History. When you change this, 5% of the last 100 items wouldn't have been entered. I wouldn't know that Yagada got an item, I wouldn't know that Eddge got an item. I don't really have a problem with you removing the 0 bid, I have a problem with loots not being entered into the system.


As one of the usual DKP officers I can tell you that I ALWAYS enter every raid mob loot that is looted by a player, whether it be a main, alt, guest regardless of bid amount or FFA. This, however, isn't a mandatory thing that is enforced as of yet.. and may never be..

On the worst DKP nights AKA: Full Anguish/Demi clearings, It took between 15-30 minutes to enter DKP. most nights it takes less than 10 minutes so the need for a different DKP tool really isn't needed or worth making Worff revamp/xfer the years of data from our current system.

I personally was against doing away with the 0 bids but I was in the minority. I could care less if it was considered "dibs" as it would keep guests from hovering over the corpse for the FFA instead of mains. It also made it more organized instead of 16 people all trying to loot FFA runes at once.

I am also very much against Blind Bidding because then we will only have conspiracy theories saying the DKP officer sent tells to their friends saying what the current high bid is so they could win and who knows what else. It also weakens the overall dkp pool because 9 times out of 10 i guarantee the item would go for more than it would have via open bidding.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Aithzar » Thu May 22, 2008 4:51 pm

Ranjaling wrote:As one of the usual DKP officers I can tell you that I ALWAYS enter every raid mob loot that is looted by a player, whether it be a main, alt, guest regardless of bid amount or FFA. This, however, isn't a mandatory thing that is enforced as of yet.. and may never be..


This is a mis-communication. I was told by an Officer that any item that is not FFA was "suppose" to be entered into the DKP system. This included 0 bid items. Apologize for mis-representing the current way of handling item history. Can we talk about requiring all armor slot items being entered into the DKP system? Is this something the Officers would entertain? I for one, would appreciate it.

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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Elison » Thu May 22, 2008 4:52 pm

Any loot that didn't get a minimum bid would be available for alts and boxes to random on. I think that was in exchange for boxes and alts never earning DKP (or being allowed to bid DKP)


I am all for this. As a boxer / botter I feel that this is more than fair. It would completely eliminate the box / bot winning bids over mains and would lower the cost of some items.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Sothran » Thu May 22, 2008 5:18 pm

Just my 2 cents on the matter. I did not have a problem with 0 bids, but in the same light I dont have a problem with minimum of 1 dkp bids. But in reality, the only thing this has done is turn the old 0 dkp bid into the new 1 dkp bid. It is still the exact same bid really. 1 dkp is really not that big of a deal to earn, and I don't see alot of loot rotting or going ffa in the future, with the exceptions of runes and mabye some older content raids. So in my personal opinion, the amout of time and recordkeeping trouble that will be saved by this is very very minimal. At most, you would save possibly 1 minutes per mob in someplace like Demi, which even on a full clear, would net us at most 9 minutes, which is not enough time really do anything else we would not have done in the first place.( no calculations or studies behind those numbers, purely theoretical examples) Now in a place like DK or FC, comin into AG, makes no difference, except for forcing a couple dkp, and that really makes no nevermind to me. I do agree with Aith though, I do appreciate all loots being recorded, but I can live without that. I also agree that raising the minimum bidding or incriments, is best left out. I see no reason to force a player to pay 1 or 2 or even 3 nights of dkp for an item that could have gone for 3 hours of dkp. My last guild had a minimum bid set at almost a week's worth of dkp and incriments of 5, and I think it was a poor system. It was also a blind bidding system, which I do not miss in any way. I dont think the players should be required to spend any more dkp than necessary. Silent bidding and high minimum bids and increments really require larger pools of dkp and atleast 4 nights a week of raiding, if not 5. Granted I do not have to track the dkp system, but shouldnt any changes made to that system be made for the benifit of the raiders? All this being said, I am not going to be one to fuss too much about it. If something drops that I want and noone else does, ill bid 1, and be happy. I just dont think this change is worth causing the inherent problems that those changes can bring. I dont think the system was really broken before, feels like a patch for the sake of a patch. Just my uneducated opinion, from the view in my chair.

P.S. I really do appreciate all the hard work all of the officers put into this guild and the raids. I have found this to be a good place to be, and I dont want anyone to think I am questioning motives or ability.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Bilnick » Thu May 22, 2008 5:30 pm

Naiin wrote:The problem is that:


An officer (the GL at that!!) colluded with ANYONE to bid rig (yeah thats what its called) and now wants to pretend its ok.... its never ok... and Clarr doesnt give a shit about the hammer anymore.


Just pointing out why Bid Rigging sucks and used my wife as an example of someone who got "left out" and I bet there are others in the future if its allowed. You cant fix it now.... but can we at least talk about the future in a manner that actually reflects real situations?


Bid rigging does suck, and I don't participate in that. I prefer to let my bidding do the talking.

To me it doesn't sound like Clarr got left out, it sounds like she was very much involved with the rigging.

There is nothing to discuss about future rigging of bids. There is absolutely nothing I or anyone else can do if the 2 Berzerkers on a raid decide before bidding that Zerker A will get this drop and Zerker B will not bid.

If you don't want to participate in bid fixing....don't, problem solved. It really is that simple right?
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Brikksx » Thu May 22, 2008 5:51 pm

I personally can say that i have 100% been involved in an agreement (Bid Rigging as Naiin call's it).. The Sk's did it on the Anguish sk only blade and on the Demi sk only blade. I will also say that if the 5 SK's agreed on a certain Knight to get the blade and then one of the 5 decided he wanted to back out, then that would be totally up to him. Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head and i see nothing wrong with it, cause sooner or later everyone gets one or they will get better.

I am not sure what you are trying to get at Naiin by pointing that finger but it was unwaranted and distastefull. Nothing can come of that but hard feelings.

There is noway to ever stop players from making loot agreements and those that don't want to then bid up as normal as you want.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Naiin » Thu May 22, 2008 6:13 pm

Bid Rigging as defined by English... not just Naiin... you speak that right?

Clarr did get left out (as well she should have IMO... she cheated, ask her) and she was not the one begging her not to bid... Zyzz brought it up ( I can see her screen remember?)... and kept on about it... I can understand being excited... but for fuck sake bid on it!!


I never pointed a finger other than to state that I like Blind bids as it makes it very difficult to persuade folks at the time of the drop to change something they will either have decided to ALREADY go after or not... especially people who are supposed to be representing the guild with their best foot forward... and if you cant understand that ..... re read my post... ya damn troll!

Bilnick wrote:Bid rigging does suck, and I don't participate in that. I prefer to let my bidding do the talking.

To me it doesn't sound like Clarr got left out, it sounds like she was very much involved with the rigging.

There is nothing to discuss about future rigging of bids. There is absolutely nothing I or anyone else can do if the 2 Berzerkers on a raid decide before bidding that Zerker A will get this drop and Zerker B will not bid.

If you don't want to participate in bid fixing....don't, problem solved. It really is that simple right?


I couldnt agree more.
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