NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Koromir » Tue May 20, 2008 11:08 am

Worff wrote:===================================================================

Ok back on track... 0 bids are a waste of time and they are annoying to the loot officer and raid leader too... selling it for 0 means it still has to be recorded as a sale, while FFA it does not... thus saving some time there from having to write it down or dig it out of the log later. FFA also absolves us from any responsibility on making sure a certain person gets that loot. Loot officer can release the corpse and move on to next objective. We don't care who gets the loot if it's FFA... it can be a guest even if its called in /rs rather than only in /gu. So, if you're really truly interested in an item, bid 1 and that 1 will secure it for you if no one else bids. If it's not worth 1 DKP to YOU .. it's not worth the trouble to process that sale to US... that's the bottom line.

As far as the idea of minimum incremental bids go... I'll never agree to that, DKP pools aren't big enough and people like to have the freedom to bid exactly what they want to bid... and I think that's fair.

Time limit on bidding per item: this I might agree with, at first glance it seems like a little too much pressure for some folks, but as long as it is a reasonable amount of time though I think it could work and remain fair.


How is minimum bids of 1 not a waste of time? Its the same idea, only thing i see is that you're too lazy to record something into dkp so you think that if something goes ffa it might save you a whole 15 seconds of entering it into the system later. Do we seriously have issues with ninja looting on our raids that we need the loot officer to lock a corpse? Just take bids, write down who wins and move on. I'm sorry for being cold about this but I've done dkp in the past and its really not that complicated, hell when I did dkp it was entered into the system after every fight so that dkp was always current for every bid. Not saying we should be doing that. That was a bit over the top for us but the fact you don't have to do anything but take an hourly raid dump and write down who won a loot into a notebook, not gonna get sympathy saying that its so time consuming you can't pay attention to /rsay.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Fenina » Tue May 20, 2008 11:18 am

Worff wrote:Ok back on track... 0 bids are a waste of time and they are annoying to the loot officer and raid leader too... selling it for 0 means it still has to be recorded as a sale, while FFA it does not...

Umm the amount of time to record a loot at 0 or anyvalue is really insignificant if the person recording maintains a consistent '/rs congrats xyz on item abc' type call. Using a combination of a daily logsplitter (say tango) and the command prompt command 'find' you will get the list of items and values. Hell could even just scribble down 'fen 3' then 'find 'fenina has looted' eqlog_someone_2008_05_20.txt' to get the item. I strongly feel that any nodrop item won on a raid should be tracked regardless of it's dkp value. I do mean by that an item that is gear not like a 100 dmg none / none weapon.

I do have to say though that I've never seen the back end of a dkp system before as this is my first dkp system I've been in. Above is just how I would look up items awarded from a log.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Aithzar » Tue May 20, 2008 11:24 am

Worff wrote:Ok back on track... 0 bids are a waste of time and they are annoying to the loot officer and raid leader too... selling it for 0 means it still has to be recorded as a sale, while FFA it does not... thus saving some time there from having to write it down or dig it out of the log later. FFA also absolves us from any responsibility on making sure a certain person gets that loot. Loot officer can release the corpse and move on to next objective. We don't care who gets the loot if it's FFA... it can be a guest even if its called in /rs rather than only in /gu. So, if you're really truly interested in an item, bid 1 and that 1 will secure it for you if no one else bids. If it's not worth 1 DKP to YOU .. it's not worth the trouble to process that sale to US... that's the bottom line.


So this change was to speed up the looting and DKP recording process? I don't understand. Looting will always be slower then people who aren't bidding would like. Its just how it goes. I think if we wanted to shave time off how long it takes to do looting we should look at how long we wait from mob death to bidding start. It seems sometimes this takes longer then the actual bidding. Now, sometimes this is attributed to player deaths and having to rez, but we can atleast link items and be all set to go when clerics say all corpses rezzed. To the second part, I don't understand why the DKP recording process needs to be sped up. You guys don't do instant recording of DKP transactions. The requirement is that they be posted before the next scheduled raid night so its not like you guys are slowing down a raid night because you have a 0 bid to record. If this all stems from EQDKP being teh suck, ask Zyzz to see a solution I sent him a month or so ago Worff. I can explain it more detail if your interested. I would guarantee that would allow you to remove pretty much all DKP recording time. Re-iterating what I said in previous post, I really hope we keep tracking item data on all Schedule Raid Night Raids.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Worff » Tue May 20, 2008 11:40 am

Guys, we know how to parse logs and record dkp and loot... again if it's not worth 1 DKP to anyone, it's really not worth messing with to us. It might seem insignificant, but when the officers that handle loot ALL the time ask for a change like this, we're going to consider it. We did consider it (along with the other 2 ideas discussed here), and gave it a lot of debate, and decided that minimum bid is now 1. We denied the other 2 ideas. We have a considerable amount of loots drop to handle, this is one way to make that process easier to handle. It's sort of easy to sit back and say how it's not going to help when you don't handle it all the time. Anyway... this is the long and short of it.

Aye Aith I saw that DKP stuff you sent Zyzz a while back.. a couple of months ago I think it was. Thanks but we're not going to change software at this point tho... everyone knows how to use our current software, and I know the innards of our current software to keep it secure... I don't know diddly squat about that one you showed Zyzz... not saying it's bad just don't want to mess with it. Plus, I still have development going to integrate our DKP and forums along with other stuff, and I'd have to drag up on all the work I've done towards that which I'm not willing to do.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Fenina » Tue May 20, 2008 11:46 am

If it sucks to enter it in then improve the collection tool, just don't use laziness on collection to justify an incomplete set of data.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Zyzzerzazz » Tue May 20, 2008 11:53 am

Bidding Zero on an item is not a bid, its calling dibs.

There is no cost to the potiential looter, thus there should be no owernership.

Reason it however you like, save time here, save time there, less annoying whatever. The plain and simple IMO was there is no commitment paid to the guild for the item, thus no guarentee should be given to the 0 bid by the guild. Pay the 1 freaking dkp for the drop and then you have a legit bid.

There were alot of good reasons to eliminate zero bids, and some made more sense then others, but why not give it a try and see how it goes. Bilnick and I were onthe same page in terms of wanting a little more weight to be delivered to this change, but maybe in time more will agree if a change is needed.

Naiin I detest your claims of officer rigged bids and owe you a full /bonk...sounds like a good job for Clarr :) --- Its mostly single class specific loots that even ever get organized bidding, and thats with members and officers alike. Like I expect to have Aith / Deru to loot the first cleric hammer from TSS that drops cuz Me/Sae/Arr have better then both of theirs ATM, and I will get mine later for cheaper. WTF is wrong with that? Comming from a class that has such low competition from the silk/int caster loots seems kinda silly guy. Try being a cleric with 12 other active raiders in your class and being in the plate class....your damn right we discuss loot upgrades and plan ahead our loot needs/ideas. We being the members of the classes, which your right, does include officers :P

Also, Blind bidding IMO is even more counter-progressive in terms of even loot distribution then pure dkp vs God. Blind bidding allows for very little to no public disgression in terms of who is bidding on what. IE, when you see that new app who you know needs X item and its a marginal upgrade for you but a great one for them ect...Blind bidding eliminates that all together.

Lets kick it around and see how it sticks. Maybe we can build on it more or totally go back to haveing zero bid count for somthing /boggle
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Aithzar » Tue May 20, 2008 12:35 pm

Zyzzerzazz wrote:Bidding Zero on an item is not a bid, its calling dibs.
There is no cost to the potiential looter, thus there should be no owernership.


I agree that it is basically calling DIBS. By doing so, it keeps me from bidding my alts if I see a main actually needs it. Many recently made members get catch up loot for cheap. Seeing them bid 0 or even 1 lets me know that I shouldn't bid with my alts.


Zyzzerzazz wrote:Reason it however you like, save time here, save time there, less annoying whatever. The plain and simple IMO was there is no commitment paid to the guild for the item, thus no guarantee should be given to the 0 bid by the guild. Pay the 1 freaking dkp for the drop and then you have a legit bid.


What is the difference between 0 and 1? 1 hour? 1dkp is no different then 0. The process will still be the same, people will claim dibs with a 1 bid instead of 0, I don't see anything changing. Looking in the DKP item logs, the last 100 items. 5 were Zero bid wins. Yagada got his class specific loot from TSS because no other main berserkers were at raid, and the box zerker didn't bid against him. Eddge got a dragonkiller from a Vish raid for 0. 3 TSS spell runes went for 0. So in 100 items, 5% were 0 bid loots. If this is about the spell runes, it was said 3 weeks ago by Bilnick that we would start FFA'n the runes but the rule was you could only loot 1 per mob, this was yet to be implemented. I was told this is because people were still bidding on them.

Zyzzerzazz wrote:There were alot of good reasons to eliminate zero bids, and some made more sense then others, but why not give it a try and see how it goes. Bilnick and I were onthe same page in terms of wanting a little more weight to be delivered to this change, but maybe in time more will agree if a change is needed.


Can we get a little discussion about the reasons you talked about? Other then the time issue which has been brought up, and the extra work for the DKP officer. What does wanting more weight to be delivered with this change mean? Thank you.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Zyzzerzazz » Tue May 20, 2008 12:48 pm

The reasons have been discussed in the last 3 pages. Nothing more to it man. This is a very small change that we are going to try out and see how it goes.

If the change is seen as haveing no real impact, then whats the big discussion about?

I wanted more weight added to this cuz I wanted to see a higher min bid and a higher min bid increments. I think Bilnick and I were together on the idea just not on the numbers /shrug - This was all we could agree on for now. But its problably not the last time we will revisit the idea after we let it ride for a while and see how it goes.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Worff » Tue May 20, 2008 1:19 pm

Fenina wrote:If it sucks to enter it in then improve the collection tool, just don't use laziness on collection to justify an incomplete set of data.


Lazy eh? Sorry I just don't see laziness being a factor. Matter of fact some officers do more than their share at times, and always an honest days work as a matter of routine. We're always looking for ways to make things better for everyone, but also better for us who's doing a significant portion of the heavy lifting. Add to that we play by the same rules everyone else does (even if we made them) I don't see how anyone can complain /shrug. All of us will be doin the 1 DKP thing, not just some people.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Aithzar » Tue May 20, 2008 1:43 pm

Zyzzerzazz wrote:If the change is seen as haveing no real impact, then whats the big discussion about?


My discussion is about the fact that 0 bid loots that are awarded on Scheduled DKP Raids are now being entered into the Items Tracking and History. When you change this, 5% of the last 100 items wouldn't have been entered. I wouldn't know that Yagada got an item, I wouldn't know that Eddge got an item. I don't really have a problem with you removing the 0 bid, I have a problem with loots not being entered into the system.

Speaking to your comment about higher minimum bids. Meh. I had that in the DKP system I designed with Found. We assigned every item a value from 1-5. These were numbers Found and I came up with for the min. bid by looking at the rarity, quality, and Classes available to use. For every single item that we got, we had previously assigned values to the loot table from mobs we had planned on hitting in the future. Anytime a new target came up, one of us would assign values to the loot table, post it and discuss. For people who are saying that entering in 0 bid items is wasting time, wait until you have the look up the minimum bids for every single item that drops, assign minimum bids to new loots before we get to the content. Now, I liked this system. Andy and I both had time to spare for EQ and EQ Admin stuff so we didn't have a problem with it. This type of system is definitely more balanced and it gets rid of those cheap little bids. It allows people who are knowledgeable about loot to assign values that expresses rarity and quality, you would be surprised how many members this helps. I'm all behind you for a min. bid system Zyzz and I hope you and Bilnick can convince the others, but it sounds like time is an issue for Officers.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Zyzzerzazz » Tue May 20, 2008 2:37 pm

Time is an issue for everyone....everywhere

Point taken tho, thx
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Fenina » Tue May 20, 2008 3:49 pm

Worff wrote:
Fenina wrote:If it sucks to enter it in then improve the collection tool, just don't use laziness on collection to justify an incomplete set of data.


Lazy eh? Sorry I just don't see laziness being a factor. Matter of fact some officers do more than their share at times, and always an honest days work as a matter of routine. We're always looking for ways to make things better for everyone, but also better for us who's doing a significant portion of the heavy lifting. Add to that we play by the same rules everyone else does (even if we made them) I don't see how anyone can complain /shrug. All of us will be doin the 1 DKP thing, not just some people.


Aithzar wrote: I don't really have a problem with you removing the 0 bid, I have a problem with loots not being entered into the system.


That is my concern, I have no issue with removing 0 as a minimum bid, could even make 20 a minimum bid, but as I mentioned I do not see any additional benefit from that part alone in time or less work for an officer (will see on raids /shrug). The benefit that I see for the change seems to be in not tracking items. To me not tracking items is a big issue, it may seem pointless to people but I want to know what an item went for historically, I want to know who has looted it before and how often it tends to drop on our raids and I want to believe the information is accurate. If we're not tracking loots at 0 which people buy (and yes buying at 0 is still buying to me) that information is not as complete as it can be, which frustrates me a lot. The only benefit I can see from this to an officer is one less copy/paste (or however loot is entered) which seems insignificant (the root and only intended application of the lazy comment).

I'd be just peachy if rot loots were destroyed instead of FFA. I don't care what a minimum bid is 0, 1, 20 whatever just as long as it is recorded.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Zyzzerzazz » Tue May 20, 2008 4:04 pm

I can honestly say that the discussion to no longer need to dkp enter 0 Bid items never even came up.

It was not at all part of the ideas to make 1 the min bid.

FFA loot should not be recorded right?

But 1+ bid loots will be for sure.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Fenina » Tue May 20, 2008 4:24 pm

As I understand before the changes:
- 1+ bid items were recorded
- 0 bid items were recorded
- FFA rot items were not

As I understand after the changes:
- 1+ bid items will be recorded
- 0 bid items moved to FFA
- FFA rot items will not be recorded

This moves more towards information being left out of DKP records, moving towards less accurate recorded information. While the pre-change system left out FFA items it still recorded those purchased at 0. I can not see a benefit worth moving towards less accurate recorded information. I would gladly welcome a change that would record all FFA items even if it just to a toon named 'Rottie Looter'. ideally, but I'm guessing unlikely, would love to see recording the item at 0 value to the person looting.
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Re: NEW DKP Policy - end of Zero DKP bids

Postby Bilnick » Tue May 20, 2008 6:17 pm

FFA/Rot/0DKP were not always recorded before. Sometimes I did, sometimes not. Maybe I recorded Urtasil's alt pally getting the 8th BoFF from Anguish, maybe not. Some of the Ancient runes and 2.0 Globes were recorded, but after a while they were FFA status and I probably didn't. Never saw it as a big deal either way. Only one loot from Frostcrypt that I know of went for 0 DKP (Magimay's DRU only range item) and I think I entered that. Some Obsidian Runes I have combined. (ie if Mesomeso won 3 runes for 1 dkp each, I only entered one for 3 DKP) I didn't realize anyone was that interested in 0/1 DKP loot.

I think one of the ideas Zyzz and I threw around was to have a 5 (for example) DKP min bid for all loot. Any loot that didn't get a minimum bid would be available for alts and boxes to random on. I think that was in exchange for boxes and alts never earning DKP (or being allowed to bid DKP), but I could be wrong on the details and whose idea was whose. I like this idea alot personally. It would hopefully end any requested/non requested box/alt earning DKP stuff. People who wanted to box could bring them to the raid (as long as there was room) and would be on equal footing with the boxes that can cast SHM buffs or CLR heals.

After reading all the posts the 1 DKP minimum bid change is really not very much change at all. But it looks like it at least has us talking about ways to improve our DKP system.
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