Guild policy update regarding DKP earning criteria

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Postby Serano » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:59 am

This was never changed. If you choose to play antok for example on a raid where Ferg cannot attend (demiplane) Ferg CAN earn DKP for what Antok does.


This is innaccurate.

YOu can NOT earn DKP on your main if you decide to raid an alt into a zone they have access too. The only way your main can earn DKP while playing another character is if the RL asks you to switch. So if you show up to a raid with an alt and say can I get credit for my main who can't zone in - the answer is no. you earn DKP on the char you raid with if 1)he is either grandfathered or 2) meets app level requirement.

A player can only determine which toon gets DKP if RL asks him to switch not because the characters main can't zone in.
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Postby EQIsenhart » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:53 am

Correct Serano - I said CAN earn.
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Postby Areo » Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:26 am

This policy very negatively affects me.

I am currently lvling a sk to change over to my main. I want to be a tank. I've beening tanking with Areo in wos and I love being the one responsible for everyone elses safety. Pulling 3-4 at a time and making sure I have aggro on all. That to me is a rush.

My original plan was to get the SK to lvl 65 (currently 54, ya I'm a slackass) and declare him as my main and bring him to side loot hits, epics, don, etc. Things he can be helpful on and get him some gear in the process. All the while continueing to level him and flag him as needed.

As this policy currently states, he cannot recieve dkp even to spend on items going for 1-2 dkp. Huge upgrades for him, but probably minimal upgrades for the winning mains usually. This puts a huge damper on his growth rate.

Why are you fighting as the voice for a grp who seems to not care themselfs?


I care. Just needed to find the time to put pen to paper.
Last edited by Areo on Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Meso » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:48 am

While TF would rather keep the player, then lose them from EQ because their interest in EQ is gone, TF wants to create the most incentive for people to keep playing their mains


The theme still stands that we want people to play their mains


Talking out both sides of the mouth.

This trend is pushing TF so very far from the guild i joined and towards the elitist hard core type of guild i've tried to avoid in EQ.

I'm tired of it. Really tired!

The comment has been made to me by more than one officer - "think where oerin would be if you focused more on him"

Oerin would be in a dead account, and I would have quit EQ!!

I've been playing a paladin for about 7 years now. I'm tired of it, bored of it. I don't want to retire Oerin, I don't want to redeclare my "MAIN". I do want to do something different and mix it up a bit!

I have alts, several that I rarely play or have for specific uses.

But I DO NOT consider Meso to be an alt. In my eyes I have 2 main characters. I want to develop them equally and I want them to be treated equally!

My "alt" has more raid time, better gear, and more AAs than some other "mains".

I'm not a "fair weather raider" that logs on to get a flag and then not seen again for a while. Yeah, those "mains" are soo useful. I'd rather see an army of alts that actually play consistently.

EQs time is not as it used to be. We have over 900 registered on the website, about 800 on the roster. On a good day with an interesting raid we're lucky to see 60 log on.

There have been times when Meso was the only necro on the raid.
There have been times when there were no paladins on a raid.

The active roster rises and falls and I've argued before that diversity is good.

This particular topic doesn't apply to me as Oerin is lev 75 and Meso is lev 74, but the overall DKP policies do affect me and do concern me.

I want to play who i want when i want. I want to earn DKP for time dedicated to the raids and be able to spend it as i see fit. The spending caps are absurd. You can only spend it once. Then if you earn more it means you have contributed to the raids by being there. I don't much like the concept of transferrence or earning for another toon. But if a toon earns DKP direct, then he has worked for it and deserves to be able to use it.

Meso carries the stigma of "ALT" but has more raid time than some "mains".

I proposed to Zyzz a while back the designation of "active raider" rather than "alt" for any toon that has accumulated more than 100 DKP, clearly displaying active participation in raiding.

I was shot down.
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ok

Postby bill » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:49 am

So get your sk to 70, what's the big deal? So much crying in this thread over what, exactly?

This is to prevent abuse, plain and simple. Antok, are you abusing the system? Then this probably isn't addressed to you. Areo, likewise.

Consider the future instead of right this minute. Right this minute, the usefulness of this decision isn't readily apparent perhaps. Counterproductive is a matter of opinion.

What one person considers stifling, another considers ruining their desire to attend raids at all. So many perspectives sharing the same guild tag will cause the leadership to have to make tough decisions that will protect the most people while hurting the fewest possible.

But I digress. Get your toon to 70, simple as that.
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Postby Serano » Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:46 am

Peeps. You can have as many mains as you want TF doesn't care how many Mains you have. Lets not confuse how you classify your characters and our DKP rules. DKP main is a main according to DKP alone.

We have DKP rules which causes restrictions for you. According to DKP Mains have to be declared if they are different from the highest DKP earning character you have.

Any Mains declared after 1 July 07 will not be allowed to Accrue DKP until they meet current app requirements. Any Mains declared different from the toon you have's highest DKP prior to 1 July 07 is unaffected regardless of level. This mostly only affects our retired players. There are very few non Retired TFers with a main under 70 currently.

Aero: So yes Aero this will affect you. Since you have never formally declared your under 70 SK your DKP main then according to DKP rules Aero will continue to be your main under the DKP system. If you would like to consider your SK your main - that is fine. However if you declare him your DKP main prior to him hitting 70 he will earn no DKP for raids unless he is requested over your present DKP main.

Oerin: You may have as many mains as you want to consider mains. It makes no difference to us. However in the manner that we progress the other 100+ real people out there Tribal Fury's DKP will only acknowledge one DKP main.

Players. TF doesn't really care what manner you think of your characters. However we are not in this for your characters. We are in this for your guild. And the Officers, doing what they think is best for the many, have decided that restricting any future DKP gain to characters that are non requested under the app requirement does not promote the best interests of the majority.

Lets get this straight. DKP policy is to support the Guild. Not the various extra mains that people have a variety of ways of thinking of. We have a system that allows you to accrue DKP on as many chars as you want that are over the app policy. This is detrimental to the speed at which we plow thru content. However we value members that are interested in more than one char. They have a home here. However if they are under level 70 they are not earning DKP unless that character is requested.

So you have options:
1) play your raiding toon and help the guild kill stuff and equip your friends.
2) Play your dkp alt at a raid that does not earn DKP because it is under 70
3) play your alt that does earn DKP because it is over 70
4) play your dkp alt out of raid doing something else because you did not want to raid with your char that can earn DKP.

Let me say this again, We dont' care how you consider, love, cherish, classify your characters. But for the sake of an equal playing field with over 100 raiders, your main is the one that you have either raided the most with or have told us is now your DKP main.

If after 1 July 07 you say that your DKP main is a character under 70 then that character will not earn DKP unless the raid leader asks you to switch from your over 70 raiding alt to your under 70 main. I don't see that happening often. There is the small chance that the RL may ask you to switch from your under 70 character to your raiding main.

If the Raid leader specifically asks you to change from your under 70 raiding main then you can no longer request the DKP goes to your DKP main. Simply by having an under 70 main does not guarantee that you have a steady flow of DKP to it because you are now raiding your current DKP ALT. It is only upon request to switch to an under 70 toon that you will accrue DKP to an under 70 DKP main/alt. And again - I don't expect this to be a very common occurrence. I don't see why a raid leader would ever ask someone to switch from an over 70 ALT to an under 70 Main unless that under 70 main was a key Priest or crowd control class.

Much like those of us with an under 70 box cleric sometimes gets DKP because she happens to be a priest class. (Altho Taniquel gets FAR less DKP than she raids).

Ultimately this policy will affect less than a dozen players a year.
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Postby Meso » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:26 pm

However we are not in this for your characters. We are in this for your guild

I think that some have gorgotten that without our characters (and the people behind them) there is no guild. Lets not lose sight of this.
I've been in guilds before where the objective was to satisfy the goals of the management - the general population be damned.
TF has been better than that.

This is detrimental to the speed at which we plow thru content.

:horsep Horse Crap!
Are we in a freakin hurry??? There are certainly some that maybe have too much time on their hands and get bored easy.

Let me say this again, We dont' care

:-#
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Postby Areo » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:29 pm

I seriously fail to see how one post stating my opinion can be taken as "crying".

I have disagreed with several other things this guild has enacted in the past and after stating my opinion went along with guild leaderships decision. No complaints.
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Postby Redeemed » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:47 pm

/shrug... What is so wrong about having only 1 dkp main? 2.0's are goin to alts it won't be long after we consistently plow through demi-plane anguish loots will be alt purchaseable.

What is confusing about not earning dkp on a leveling main that is not 70 and or is not flagged for anguish\demi-plane etc.? Consider this, a main character, that has no grandfather alts, and is not yet flagged for anguish cannot raid therefore cannot earn dkp on their main.

This thread is never ending complaints. Jeebus :help

*edit* raid ins earn dkp but thats another issue if a main over 70 doesn't have all their sigs or doesnt have dsk key etc. is the issue im refering to.
Last edited by Redeemed on Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby EQIsenhart » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:53 pm

I challenge you to find a guild with more lax alt/box policys then us.

What guild on the server will allow your newly level 70 alt once they anguish sig'ed to come in, loot a seal, accrue DKP then OUTBID a main on anguish loot or above and take it home that same night!

Our alt policy is more than fair as it stands. IMO if you think that being able to bid up to 20 on anguish loot or above is unfair to you - you need to rethink your own morals. We have 50+ other players with MAIN characters. And you have a MAIN character that most likely the rest of the guild has helped in a direct or indirect way.

We are NOT stifling your growth as an EQ player. This change is VERY minor. If you want to change mains and earn DKP with that main you must meet our app requirements. Very simple.

Again I repeat. No other guild is going to allow a newly squeezed level 70 alt to zone into anguish loot up a seal + be able to outbid mains on anguish loot. No other guild will let you change your main to a 70 gimp loot an anguish seal then fully accrue DKP to outbid older mains (you will not have a DKP cap if switching mains so a newly gimp 70 with 100+ dkp can go nuts in anguish per our policy) Do we like if this happens no? But this is just an example of how FAIR our alt/box policy is and how if you think we are not being fair you are taking your guild for granted.
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Postby Serano » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:55 pm

I said we are not in this for your characters. We are however in it for the people behind the characters. Not for their array of characters. Just the people and the guild.

While we are not in a hurry- gearing up multiple sets of gear for players keeps that same gear for players with one raiding main. I myself have taken several peices of gear from priests for Taniquel. This slows down the characters and makes us repeat content.

Then again after years of taking things for Taniquel she is still there when we need her - so in the end that has helped the guild.

There is a marked difference between being in a hurry and wasting time. Saying that extra characters accruing DKP instead of just one is a detriment to the speed at which we plow thru content is in regards to doing the content in order to gear up more than one set of raiders. Not the overall speed that content is defeated and moved past. So not recognizing that repeating content to gear up more than one character per player is not advantageous to the guild is myopic. If EVERY character in TF wanted to gear up two chars in stead of one it would take an artificial longer time to be geared enough to defeat the content we are currently defeating. That a few do it is no big deal. That we have a few boxes is no big deal. Some of the boxes have enabled us to actually defeat said content. There are some raids to which would not have been attempted and defeated without certain boxes or alts being available.

This is a big deal since we do not raid the hours and days that other guilds passing this content have used. Some guilds do it with less time than we use. But with a limited amount of days - it is less important to the success of the guilds raids that one player gears up 2 Marginal to above average characters than if they earned DKP on one main and focused on that so far as raid contribution. So all of these tunes in DKP are to encourage players to focus on one raiding char to help the raids be more successful instead of using the raids to make your stable of chars more successful.

And that is a cute excerpt Oerin. Real smooth deleting the meat of the sentiment. Real Mature of you. Something I would expect from one of our under 20 year olds.

The Guild leadership does not care how you think of your characters. However the way you earn DKP on your characters will be limited in a way that is equal to all players not characters.

Aero - I missed where anyone said you were crying. If someone said you were or felt liek we feel you were whining - I believe they were wrong to do so. Aero I think you have been very mature in the questions and concerns with policy.
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Postby EQIsenhart » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:01 pm

Oerin I don't get it man you have 2 toons demiplane 5/5 (1 5/5 by raids, 1 looted backflag) While we have current mains needing that key btw.

Both toons have their 2.0 globe (neither toon the actual 2.0) what more do you want? Both toons have anguish gear or above. Both toons have Kess/Rikk etc. How is TF not being fair to you? How ARE YOU being fair to TF? Please explain. If you dare try to say TF hasn't been fair to you my friend you are sorely mistaken.
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Postby Serano » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:06 pm

We have players looting backflags on 2nd chars access into the zone prior to players getting one loot of a backflag? Hmm We will need to make a policy about that.

I remember at some point in the past, I suggested setting gear reqs for apps. the general response from pretty much everyone was "it's not been a problem yet, so why do we need to deal with it now?" I don't see any harm that has happened in the past because of the lack of this rule, and I do see harm that would have happened had this rule been in place previously.


I missed this Gem earlier Antok.

This is exactly why we made this policy. So that we would no longer have any players earning DKP on toons that are restarts until they are up to the minimum app level in the guild. Since we like the player they don't need to re-app with their new toon - that is the bonus of already being in the guild. However - DKP is for raiders not restarts until they are at the raid level of our guild which has been determined to match our App requirement. Unless you are grandfathered as a gesture to anyone that would have been under the policy before it was updated. Any future migrations from any player to new mains will be affected - brought in part largely by the circumstance that you brought to us with Ferg. When it was discovered that you were earning DKP regularly on a toon you were not even raiding with or raiding effectivly - it highlighted a problem with our system.
Last edited by Serano on Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Uilea » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:12 pm

I think people misunderstood my post, all I meant was I'm not going to argue this here.

REGARDLESS, I'm pling 2 characters right now so if anyone wants some help leveling up let me know.
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Postby Zyzzerzazz » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:18 pm

I dont see how this is negative for anyone other then those who are not serious about changeing mains.

All this policy is saying is prove you are serious about changeing mains, and you are all set. To the guild, you can prove you are serious by getting your new dkp main up the current standards of the applicants.

Plain and simple.

I am sorry if anyone feels porked by this, but how do you think the 95% of our raiders feel when they are stuck with an under geared / under leveled toon in their raid who is dragging them down, or taking up a seat a more power toon who is on par with the rest of the raiders is left out?

Like a lv 65 cleric who is in your grp with 6k mana and 25 AA? While a 75 druid with 500 AA is sitting outside the raid ready to go cuz its full.

Or how about a lv 65 warrior who has less hp / aa / defensive AA then the healers he is being asked to protect? /boggle
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