Guild policy update regarding DKP earning criteria

All guild policies in one easy place. Know them.

Moderator: Officers

Postby Antok » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:52 am

EQIsenhart wrote:However, you won't be raiding with your cleric again (unless you mean for example things the Zerker isn't flagged for.) In certain cases there is nothing stopping an officer from awarding DKP to a DIFFERENT toon when that toon is requested.

I don't know why you say that.

So far, every raid I have brought ferg on, I have also brought ant on.

Additionally, except for grandfathering in people, ferg would not currently be eligible for DKP.

C represents an obvious advantage both for TF and for the players involved. I doubt I will be the last person in this situation; and any further people will get hit by this rule change.

So -- I see an obvious disadvantage of this change that is likely to occur, if not with any great frequency, and I fail to see any real benefit to it.

missed your edit, will edit shortly.
A CAT IS FINE TOO!!!
Antok
Member
 
Posts: 1299
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:11 pm

Postby EQIsenhart » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:57 am

check out the rest -

Option C is what we CURRENTLY do now!

We can gladly give the zerk DKP for Antok raiding. We have done it in the past not only for you but for others. It is no secret like I said.

These are 2 seperate issues.

Earning DKP on one requested toon to go to another is nothing to do with mains must meet app requirements to earn dkp

Situation C) DKP reassignment is allowed. I continue to raid fairly regularly.


This was never changed. If you choose to play antok for example on a raid where Ferg cannot attend (demiplane) Ferg CAN earn DKP for what Antok does.
Image
User avatar
EQIsenhart
Member
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:28 am
Location: WV
Highscores: 2

Postby Antok » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:04 am

EQIsenhart wrote:check out the rest -

Option C is what we CURRENTLY do now!

We can gladly give the zerk DKP for Antok raiding. We have done it in the past not only for you but for others. It is no secret like I said.

These are 2 seperate issues.

Earning DKP on one requested toon to go to another is nothing to do with mains must meet app requirements to earn dkp

the OP doesn't indicate a difference.

As of 7/1/07 you have to meet the current app requirements in order to earn DKP on a raid - mains and alts alike - UNLESS you are requested by the raid leader to play a toon that doesn't meet the requirements.


Having ant requested for a demiplane raid does not meet any of the listed conditions in that for having dkp go to ferg -- Ant would be the requested toon (who does meet requirements,) and ferg would be an unrequested toon not meeting the alt requirements, and thus, by the currently posted rule, not able to receive DKP (minus the grandfathering.)

if this is only intended to apply to people actually raiding on a sub-70 toon instead of assigning DKP to a sub-70 toon while raiding on a post-70 toon I wouldn't have a great issue with it as long as that was edited in to the DKP policy to be clear -- although I still just doesn't see the point.
A CAT IS FINE TOO!!!
Antok
Member
 
Posts: 1299
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:11 pm

Postby EQIsenhart » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:08 am

I don't care what anything indicates.

A Main cannot earn DKP unless they meet app requirements VERY Simple. in Your case Ferg is waived of this requirement.

Say He wasnt waived of this requirement ok then...Ferg gets to 70.

Antok is the REQUESTED box...DKP goes to Fergalicious nothing has changed.

Having ant requested for a demiplane raid does not meet any of the listed conditions in that for having dkp go to ferg -- Ant would be the requested toon (who does meet requirements,) and ferg would be an unrequested toon not meeting the alt requirements, and thus, by the currently posted rule, not able to receive DKP (minus the grandfathering.)


This is completely incorrect. These are 2 totally seperate issues a main meeting app requirements has "nothing" to do with DKP earned by a requested box going to the main.
Image
User avatar
EQIsenhart
Member
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:28 am
Location: WV
Highscores: 2

Postby Antok » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:17 am

A Main cannot earn DKP unless they meet app requirements VERY Simple. in Your case Ferg is waived of this requirement.

Say He wasnt waived of this requirement ok then...Ferg gets to 70.

Antok is the REQUESTED box...DKP goes to Fergalicious nothing has changed.

I think we had a misunderstanding.

I know that ferg is grandfathered in, and thus currently eligible for DKP.

However, according to my understanding of what is currently posted, someone else, in the exact same situation, who was not grandfathered in, would not be eligible to receive DKP in the same situation.

This seems counter-productive.

Is my understanding of what is currently posted correct? (take situation C, and replace it with an imaginary different person who does this at some point in the future, and is thus not grandfathered in.)

if this is only intended to apply to people actually raiding on a sub-70 toon instead of assigning DKP to a sub-70 toon while raiding on a post-70 toon I wouldn't have a great issue with it as long as that was edited in to the DKP policy to be clear.

If it is intended to apply to sub-70 toons getting assigned DKP from someone raiding on a useful main -- I'd like some discussion of it, or at least an explanation of why, in your opinion, the benefits of making the change outweigh the detriments I outlined in a/b.

This is completely incorrect. These are 2 totally seperate issues a main meeting app requirements has "nothing" to do with DKP earned by a requested box going to the main.

it does, because if DKP earned by a requested box cannot go to a main that does not meet the app requirement, I would see pretty big issues with this.
A CAT IS FINE TOO!!!
Antok
Member
 
Posts: 1299
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:11 pm

Postby EQIsenhart » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:27 am

level 75 uber <tf> let's call him uber for short.

Uber decides to switch mains to his level 64 warrior.

Uber raids demiplane and anguish with us all week long.

Uber's warrior still hasn't leveled up or got any extra AA's yet is sitting on a pile of DKP.

Uber's warrior raids decides to raid - Shyra - Yarlir - Vish - Sendaii - (stick in any instance you can think of)

Uber's warrior outbids main characters on Vish belt and mask and wins as a level 64 warrior.

Uber decides to quit the game. Sell his account and retire.

Uber should have got the warrior level 70 so at least he could have used the gear he outbid high attendance raiders on and then been able to help the guild that helped gear him up so much. Also maybe Uber would not have been so discouraged with his warrior had he taken the time to level it to 70 to actually meet our app requirements so he could raid and have an enjoyable time and be a successful main switch. Now he is discouraged that he has a very crappy 64 warrior with Vish loot and and other gear he can't equip yet. But he just doesn't feel like playing the warrior anymore....Uber's story is very extreme. But unfortunately it isn't too far from things that have happened in the past. /flame shield on
Image
User avatar
EQIsenhart
Member
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:28 am
Location: WV
Highscores: 2

Postby Antok » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:31 am

anyone who wants to ebay is going to find a way ebay, and this policy won't stop that. if anyone wants to use TF for gear, having to level a toon to 70 won't stop them.

We already have a policy that you can't bid on loot unless you are within two levels of being able to use it. If you are worried about level 68 people buying loot -- wouldn't changing the rule to "you must meet the level requirement to bid" be a FAR better solution? or even "you must meet current applicant requirements to be able to bid on loot."

There are things that could be done to ensure that level 64 people don't walk away with high-end loot that would at the same time not discourage people, however, this is not one of them.
A CAT IS FINE TOO!!!
Antok
Member
 
Posts: 1299
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:11 pm

Postby EQIsenhart » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:35 am

you are 100% right we cannot stop ebay or people from retiring no policy can stop those things.

We are simply trying to DECREASE the chance of things like this happening.

Being level 70 and being able to use the loot you win also makes you visibly able to see the gains you get from loot - determines how successful you are on our raids and have a higher % chance to keep you interested in the game and the guild.
Image
User avatar
EQIsenhart
Member
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:28 am
Location: WV
Highscores: 2

Postby Antok » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:37 am

EQIsenhart wrote:you are 100% right we cannot stop ebay or people from retiring no policy can stop those things.

We are simply trying to DECREASE the chance of things like this happening.

Being level 70 and being able to use the loot you win also makes you visibly able to see the gains you get from loot - determines how successful you are on our raids and have a higher % chance to keep you interested in the game and the guild.

so then, what would be the issue with requiring level 70/being able to use the drop to bid on something, but still being able to get DKP regardless?

I think that the policy as it is currently written in the original post is far more likely to frustrate people than saying "you can earn, but you can't spend," and it seems like saying "you can earn, but you can't spend," would do most of what you view as positive about the current policy.
A CAT IS FINE TOO!!!
Antok
Member
 
Posts: 1299
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:11 pm

Postby EQIsenhart » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:45 am

That is a great idea Antok. I am not totally 100% sure if its written in policy that a toon must meet the level requirements on an item in order to bid. But if not I will see about getting it put in there!
Image
User avatar
EQIsenhart
Member
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:28 am
Location: WV
Highscores: 2

Postby Antok » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:47 am

EQIsenhart wrote:That is a great idea Antok. I am not totally 100% sure if its written in policy that a toon must meet the level requirements on an item in order to bid. But if not I will see about getting it put in there!

It is -- last time I brought ferg to don, i checked.

ATM, you have to be within two levels to bid. that could easily be changed to have to be able to use, or have to be level 70, etc.

It seems like it would do exactly what you wanted this to do, without having the side effect of completely erasing the incentive of anyone changing mains to raid on their better geared toon while they level.
A CAT IS FINE TOO!!!
Antok
Member
 
Posts: 1299
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:11 pm

Postby EQIsenhart » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:51 am

Keep in mind it wasn't just me voting on this issue.

This issue was ALMOST unanimous all the officers were in agreement with this one issue.

So again final stance here for those reading at home.

You can still earn DKP on your main if you are requested to play a box.
Image
User avatar
EQIsenhart
Member
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:28 am
Location: WV
Highscores: 2

Postby Zyzzerzazz » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:53 pm

While TF would rather keep the player, then lose them from EQ because their interest in EQ is gone, TF wants to create the most incentive for people to keep playing their mains. Not switching toons every year.

Changeing mains is excellent for some players, but not all, take Jumjam or Teannin. Both took the time to make their old alts into quality new mains. If you cannot level up your alt to lv 70-75 to let them earn DKP - you really dont give a shit about them, and just want a new temperory toy to play with.

Also - we do not want a lv TWO Cleric alt to have 100+ Dkp banked, which is TOTALLY possiable if not for the language in the posted policy, and still would not be solved if we just changed the policy to a bidding lv cap requirement.


Fact is:

95% or more of the active guild consistently plays their mains on raids. Haveing everyone play their mains, and improveing their mains, creates MORE growth and progress.

Why would TF want to encourage people to NOT upgrade their mains? To preserve the playerbase?

Maybe, but I know for myself, I would rather recruit a new applicant who will play their 1 main and work on them -- OR --- the current member take the time to level up their alt to the app requirements ( which always have and pretty much always will be CAKE ) to amke their alt / new main useful to the raid/guild.

This policy protects the many(ie the overwhealming majority who riad with their mains), while the few are forced to invest the mininmum effort into their alts before they can earn dkp.

I dont think this at all too much to ask for form people who wish to change mains, in fact is almost next to nothing.

I dont see the big deal here Antok. Why are you fighting as the voice for a grp who seems to not care themselfs? For the better of the guild? Please reconsider yoru efforts,a nd try to see that this policy is in the best interests of the guild as a whole, ans serves the overwhealming majority.
Zyzzerzazz Guildkilla
Tribal Fury

"Satisfaction guaranteed or 96% of your experience back!"
User avatar
Zyzzerzazz
Member
 
Posts: 6377
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Boston

Postby Antok » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:26 pm

Also - we do not want a lv TWO Cleric alt to have 100+ Dkp banked, which is TOTALLY possiable if not for the language in the posted policy, and still would not be solved if we just changed the policy to a bidding lv cap requirement.

why is that an issue if the cleric can't spend it till level 70 or 75 though? If the person never ever levels up their alt, they'll never ever have a chance to spend that DKP.

I dont see the big deal here Antok. Why are you fighting as the voice for a grp who seems to not care themselfs? For the better of the guild? Please reconsider yoru efforts,a nd try to see that this policy is in the best interests of the guild as a whole, ans serves the overwhealming majority.

I'm taking issue with this primarily because if it had been put in to effect two months earlier, it would have effected me quite negatively, and I don't see any benefits of it.

Changeing mains is excellent for some players, but not all, take Jumjam or Teannin. Both took the time to make their old alts into quality new mains. If you cannot level up your alt to lv 70-75 to let them earn DKP - you really dont give a shit about them, and just want a new temperory toy to play with.

again, using me as an example, even though I'm quite aware I am grandfathered in.

I made ferg a little over a month and a half ago. Since then, I've still been raiding fairly regularly with ant. At least one time in the last week or two that I can think of, I PC'ed the only tank who was left alive. so, me raiding has been a Good Thing (tm.) admittedly, a good chunk of the raids i have been on the dkp hasnt been going to ferg -- mostly because I have been forgetting to ask.

I'm also not up to 70 yet, not because I don't care about ferg or want to be, mostly because the people I normally XP with poofed for a while and I hate soloing.

so -- for that six weeks for anyone else in a similar situation -- pretty much any incentive to raid poofs. If RL had been open enough for me to raid full time -- I wouldn't have raided full time had I been unable to give dkp to ferg. I don't mind raiding 20% of the time for zero dkp -- I like raiding -- but I don't think I would have liked to have gone to 100% of raids for zero dkp. I probably wouldn't have xped all that much more either, since LFG is dead and soloing is boring for more than an hour or two a day. so -- unless I'm still missing a rationale for this -- in a situation like that, this would be a clear detriment, and I don't see any plausible situation where this would be a clear benefit.

I remember at some point in the past, I suggested setting gear reqs for apps. the general response from pretty much everyone was "it's not been a problem yet, so why do we need to deal with it now?" I don't see any harm that has happened in the past because of the lack of this rule, and I do see harm that would have happened had this rule been in place previously.
A CAT IS FINE TOO!!!
Antok
Member
 
Posts: 1299
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:11 pm

Postby Zyzzerzazz » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:06 pm

First of all the lfg tool is not dead, and you can still VERY easily get pickup grps in AG/Anguish/Icefall/ TBS zones and get FAST xp, ESP with lesson of the devoted AA. I know because I recently leveled up Soon to 75 quite easily from pickup grps I joined and made up.

Its such a non-issue to be forced to level up your alt / " new main " I dont get your unending disreguard on this. If you put the effort up front, the guild will honor that effort and allow your alt to earn dkp.

Why is that an issue if the cleric can't spend it till level 70 or 75 though? If the person never ever levels up their alt, they'll never ever have a chance to spend that DKP.


This is an issue because the overall theme is to play your mains! If all that 100 dkp went to your lv 2 alt, the main toon who earned that 100 dkp, who raided with TF for 100 hours, gets no benefit and does not improve, thus the guild does not improve.

The guild benefits when MAINS loot gear and USE that gear on future raids. IE more dps because ranjaling got a new sword, or more healing because Clarr got a new heal foci, or more hp Tanks because Brikksx got a new BP.

If Brikksx gave the next 100 DKP of his to his lv 2 alt, all those raids the GUILD never got ANY benefit from Brikksx earning dkp and useing it. Thats why I beg peeps who need upgrades to SPEND their DKP, so we will be more powerful the next raid !

DKP is a means for the guild to REWARD toons with upgrades, and in turn the guild get more powerful.


I'm taking issue with this primarily because if it had been put in to effect two months earlier, it would have effected me quite negatively, and I don't see any benefits of it.


Fair enough, but it still seems like you are either picking a debate just for the sake of argument, because the outcome of the conversation has no bearing on you whatsoever as you have said many times over.

I don't see any harm that has happened in the past because of the lack of this rule, and I do see harm that would have happened had this rule been in place previously.


But the fact of the matter stands that it was releaced now and not 2 months ago. So now that members are FULLY aware of the policy it prevents any future issues, and will allow people to know what to expect when they desire to change mains.

The theme still stands that we want people to play their mains, and if they do wish to change mains at some point, that the new main should be at a point where they can raid and be benificial to the cause.

If people are not going to raid / play anymore because they are sick of their currnet main, and dont want to invest the time and effort into their new main, why does the guild want to invest dkp into a toon who cannot even zone into the zones it raids currently?

I think you are an excellent player antok, and I would change what I could to keep you playing, but remember that everyone is replaceable. I can be replaced as GL / RL just as easily as we could recruit 2 par clerics to replace one really good cleric.

So thats my story, and I am welcome to any other questions or comments.
Zyzzerzazz Guildkilla
Tribal Fury

"Satisfaction guaranteed or 96% of your experience back!"
User avatar
Zyzzerzazz
Member
 
Posts: 6377
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2003 8:53 am
Location: Boston

PreviousNext

Return to Guild Policies

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron