Guild policy update regarding DKP earning criteria

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Guild policy update regarding DKP earning criteria

Postby Jaella » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:34 am

This was added in order to have DKP earning criteria reflect our current app requirements:

As of 7/1/07 you have to meet the current app requirements in order to earn DKP on a raid - mains and alts alike - UNLESS you are requested by the raid leader to play a toon that doesn't meet the requirements.
This restriction is in place from 7/1/07. Mains who per this date do not meet the new requirements are "grandfathered in" but ANY new main will have to meet the above mentioned requirements in order to be elidgable for DKP on raids."
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Postby Naiin » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:40 am

Linkies the app requirements.... I forgot >.<
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Postby Jaella » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:57 am

LMAO - level 70 :jester
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Postby Zyzzerzazz » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:57 pm

Our app reqirements are pretty simple right now, and possiably will stay that way.

But this policy will evolve as the app requirements do over time. IE app requirements of lv 75 when the lv cap is increased, or if we implement gear or aa requirements for apps.

This will also prevent far under level toons from getting dkp unless requested by leadership.
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Postby Antok » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:54 pm

I don't really see the point of this, especially where it comes to assigning dkp to a "main" when asked to play a higher level alt, or where it involves boxing two toons and only taking DKP for one.

I know I'll be grandfathered in on this -- but look at me as an example. Antok, although I have barely touched his gear in several months, is still the best geared cleric in TF. Compared to zyzz, I have very similiar mana, and around 600 hp more. I have close to twice the mana of some of our newest clerics. Hopefully this doesn't come off too incredibly arrogant, but I fairly regularly prevent raid wipes. I'm not supercleric, I'm not trying to claim I'm god or critical to every fight, but having a single additional very well-geared competent cleric is often the difference between winning and wiping. if nothing else, the number of times in a raid that I land heals on purple people, or people sub-20% who would have died before another heal had landed.

so, obviously, having a well-geared cleric raiding is a benefit to TF. how would letting someone in my exact situation accrue dkp on a lower level less geared character (thus providing them a reason to keep raiding on a 'bleh' character) a detriment in excess of the benefit of having another leveled geared happy person raiding?

I have no desire to advance antok further. I'll occasionally spend DKP on toys (like the tacvi cleric hammer,) but, by and large, I have little interest in better gear, and couldn't get it at the 20 alt cap anyway. (I could have left ant as my main until ferg was 75 and continued to spend dkp with no cap on him, but that seems kind of slimy -- and also pisses off a ton of people... which doesn't seem to have a great point considering I have no real desire to gear him further.)

what harm is possibly done by letting people accrue DKP on a sub-70 alt when raiding on a useful main? it seems like the only things this will do for the most part is discourage old players from coming back, further frustrate people looking to switch mains, and lower TF's raiding ability.

also -- what's the problem with letting retired members come back and earn DKP in the zones they can zone in to while they work their way back up? if you're worried about under 70 people buying gear, say you have to be 70 to spend dkp. if you're worried about people too new(ly returned) to the guild, institute a 30 day probationary period on spending dkp.

TF is one of the ONLY guilds at our level with no provision for switching or otherwise assigning DKP earned while in the process of switching mains etc. Isn't TF supposed to be the non-hardcore guild? it doesn't seem like TF to be more discouraging of changing mains or having newly returned members return to raiding than sequel.

we already restrict people to only being able to bid on gear if they are within two levels of the requirement. dkp for under-70's is also already extremely restricted because of zone requirements.

what purpose does this serve that could not be better served by saying "you must meet the level req to bid on gear at all" or "you can't spend any dkp until 70, but you can still accrue it"?

sidenote -- last week when we did tacvi, ferg outdamaged most people by a pretty good margin. #11 out of 50 people seems to be contributing to me =p

typing this was the first time i've sat down for more than ten minutes at a time in days, so it may be a little frazzly sounding.
Last edited by Antok on Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jaella » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:58 pm

This was voted on by officers and it actually DOES make sense because the current policy for ALTS is that you have to meet the current app requirements. Not having this restriction on mains did not make sense, hence the change in policy.

So this statement is way too late - alt policy was changed long ago:

what harm is possibly done by letting people accrue DKP on a sub-70 alt


This one is wrong too, since current mains (including retired people) are grandfathered in:

also -- what's the problem with letting retired members come back and earn DKP in the zones they can zone in to while they work their way back up? if you're worried about under 70 people buying gear, say you have to be 70 to spend dkp. if you're worried about people too new(ly returned) to the guild, institute a 30 day probationary period on spending dkp.


---

what purpose does this serve that could not be better served by saying "you must meet the level req to bid on gear at all" or "you can't spend any dkp until 70, but you can still accrue it"?


Like I said, it serves the purpose of making sense - i.e. having the same restrictions on all toons that raid. Since it was already in place for alts it made sense putting it in for mains too.
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Postby Antok » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:42 pm

Jaella wrote:This was voted on by officers and it actually DOES make sense because the current policy for ALTS is that you have to meet the current app requirements. Not having this restriction on mains did not make sense, hence the change in policy.

So this statement is way too late - alt policy was changed long ago:

I was using "alt" in that instance in the case of "higher level more useful character." I'll edit to make that clear in a moment.




Like I said, it serves the purpose of making sense - i.e. having the same restrictions on all toons that raid. Since it was already in place for alts it made sense putting it in for mains too.

We don't have the same restrictions on all toons that raid even with this, and that's not a valid reason anyway.

I know I'm grandfathered in, but using me as an example --

Situation A) I want to switch toons. No dkp transfer/reassignment is allowed. I focus on leveling my new alt, and never bring the best geared cleric in TF to a raid again.

Advantages of A) It's potentially less house-keeping for the DKP staff. I honestly cannot think of any others.

Disadvantages of A) TF fully loses a raiding cleric. Said cleric is frustrated by only being able to raid for no reward. TF loses a fully geared cleric who knew how to raid, and didn't require any further gear. Especially because we are in summer atm and not raiding with 54 people, this is a pretty big downside

Situation B) I want to switch toons. No dkp transfer/reassignment is allowed. I raid fairly regularly because I want to keep playing with people, and accrue 200 DKP I will never ever even consider spending.

Advantages of B) TF doesn't lose a raiding cleric. For most people, even those for whom loot is not a primary consideration, raiding for no dkp is pretty shitty. I believe even most people who normally pool dkp and rarely spend it would hesitate at regularly raiding for no dkp.


Disadvantages of B) I must be a saint. This situation should be understood to be an anomaly, and something that in most cases won't happen.
The first two situations both put the interests of the player as exact opposites from the interests of the guild.

Situation C) DKP reassignment is allowed. I continue to raid fairly regularly.

Advantages of C) Guild keeps cleric. I won't further clarify that, because the advantage of keeping a raiding cleric should be pretty obvious. By continuing to help the guild, I get a reward (DKP) on a toon that I would actually use. Raiding for DKP, and then using that DKP at 70 or 75 is far less likely to create a feeling of frustration than raiding for no reward at all. Moreover, it means that the alt of said cleric will be up to a guild-average level of gear faster.

Disadvantages of C) I don't really see any, it seems to be in the interests of both the guild and the member.

This seems contrary to to the idea of TF, and definitely seems to act against both the interest of the individual player and the guild.
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Postby Jaella » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:25 am

I'm not going to argue with you here, Antok. I was merely explaining the reasoning behind this because it seemed to me that you didn't fully understand it, is all.
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Postby Serano » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:30 am

We don't have the same restrictions on all toons that raid even with this, and that's not a valid reason anyway.


according to the following - we now "DO" have the same restrictions on all toons that raid - UNLESS they are requested by the raid leader. The toon not the player.

As of 7/1/07 you have to meet the current app requirements in order to earn DKP on a raid - mains and alts alike


HOWEVER - if a player is requested to play an alt instead of their main - if their main meets the DKP requirements they can still designate that they get DKP on their main. Providing the main meets the app requirements or is grandfathered in.
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Postby Antok » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:31 am

Serano wrote:
We don't have the same restrictions on all toons that raid even with this, and that's not a valid reason anyway.


according to the following - we now "DO" have the same restrictions on all toons that raid - UNLESS they are requested by the raid leader. The toon not the player.

As of 7/1/07 you have to meet the current app requirements in order to earn DKP on a raid - mains and alts alike


HOWEVER - if a player is requested to play an alt instead of their main - if their main meets the DKP requirements they can still designate that they get DKP on their main. Providing the main meets the app requirements or is grandfathered in.

we have the same policies regarding awarding DKP now, but not on other things.

and imo, putting in place a counter-productive policy, even if it makes things more consistent, is still counterproductive.
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Postby Antok » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:36 am

Jaella wrote:I'm not going to argue with you here, Antok. I was merely explaining the reasoning behind this because it seemed to me that you didn't fully understand it, is all.

You haven't explained the reasoning, at all.
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Postby Meso » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:37 am

most every change in dkp policy in the last year stifles diversity and growth.

Today's alt may be tomorrow's main!

and when raid numbers drop down, diversity - capacity to play a different class - can be a great help.
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Postby EQIsenhart » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:41 am

it doesnt stifle growth.

having a lvl 62 toon with less hps than Naiin buffed (haha jk naiin) stifles growth.

level the toon to 70 get the stuff needed for the zone - then we can talk
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Postby Antok » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:42 am

EQIsenhart wrote:it doesnt stifle growth.

having a lvl 62 toon with less hps than Naiin buffed (haha jk naiin) stifles growth.

level the toon to 70 get the stuff needed for the zone - then we can talk

please look at my last post, and explain why either of the first two situations are better than the third.
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Postby EQIsenhart » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:48 am

I can totally see how C would be an advantage to TF.

However, you won't be raiding with your cleric again (unless you mean for example things the Zerker isn't flagged for.) In certain cases there is nothing stopping an officer from awarding DKP to a DIFFERENT toon when that toon is requested.

Example: Zyzz requests Antok to play as Antok for demiplane and the DKP would go to Ferg...there is nothing stopping this.

Another example:

Teannin's enchanter Teennin is needed for OMM because only one enchanter is needed. Jaella requests Teannin to switch to Teennin - Teannin would get the DKP. nothing stopping that either.

The only thing this switch prevents is the same thing as alts...an alt must meet app requirements to earn DKP a main now must as well. This is in no way stifling or hindering the guild AT ALL.

The examples you used Antok can STILL be remedied. A player can play x toon and eark DKP on y toon it is ALL up to the raid leader's/officers discretion.

If someone had an alt that met app requirements and they had a toon vital to success of a raid I would gladly consider DKP to the toon of their choice...done it many times it is no secret. These are totally seperate issues.
Last edited by EQIsenhart on Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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