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Postby Horcrux » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:05 pm

Naiin wrote:*cough Bullshit... links to references or go away...[/url]


You are extremely arrogant to think that links to websites is the only way to backup information. If anything, start asking for references to published works or recorded dialogue/videos. Hell, any serious research paper a college would require of a student will fail if it relies on web sources alone. Even if it is .gov, .org, or .edu, there are still hardly any fact checking being done before a web article is posted. Websites need to be verified by checking publish dates, possible authors, and cross referencing with other websites or published works.
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Postby Naiin » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:16 pm

Horcrux wrote:
Naiin wrote:*cough Bullshit... links to references or go away...[/url]


You are extremely arrogant to think that links to websites is the only way to backup information. If anything, start asking for references to published works or recorded dialogue/videos. Hell, any serious research paper a college would require of a student will fail if it relies on web sources alone. Even if it is .gov, .org, or .edu, there are still hardly any fact checking being done before a web article is posted. Websites need to be verified by checking publish dates, possible authors, and cross referencing with other websites or published works.


I realize this is a web forum, and not a college paper, I believe that I have supplied enough evidence to support my position until someone can please please provide an equal level of credability to their statements. Anyone can spout of an opinion, fine, its America, you can be an ass if you want... I do it regularly; but if you are trying to state anything as "fact" such as what our nations moral compass might have been in a time I am almost positive none of us reading this forum were even alive, should at the very least be supported with some semi-credible source.... if not, its he said she said bullshit.... like I said ...*cough bullshit. I know I dont know it all, none of us do, but it seems to me the "facts" that some people learn in school and the "facts" derived from even a simple a source as a front page of a nationaly respected newspaper of the actual day of said event dont match....

Not exactly trying for a ubah debate, just was contradicting the simple facts Serano was placing forth and wondering if his thinking/knowledge of the published facts I can find differ so greatly on such events, is that the case for any other of his statements on more current events? I was (as Horcrux pointed out) lamely trying to support my points with some links from what I considered at the very least credible reasources to examine and discuss =P I tried to indicate in my last post that I wasnt trying to accuse any person of deciet or anything, just feel like when I make my point, I get a retort to something indirectly related... ie got no real answer.. lets argue about this.. not really into that.

Please feel free to link some evidence that we declared war on Germany first and that someone or some organization has turned our military into "cop" of the world... if not Im just gonna ignore stuff like that, esp. when 4 mins worth of web surfing brings up 4 million searchs indicating the opposite... well the searches might have had that in them.. only really went to the first 5 or 6 on each topic.. I gotta job, wife, kid, hobbies, eq to do after all =P
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Postby Serano » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:19 pm

More Americans died in WWII than Civil war.

And the reason I did not look up anything I stated is because of what Bilnick said. Everything I have discussed in this thread is based on what should be common knowledge of all US and European citizens with access to Media from Television, print or broadband.

I did not find it important to link each think that I said to either a text or web based knowledge base. I am sure that with a few hours in the day - someone could link everything I wrote to Wikipedia references with 90% similarity to my "claims."

And the Lincoln quote was from the referenced Page 60 point IIRC.

If there is any information that I have presented that you do not believe exists in common source information sources please feel free to question them by topic and Some time in a week I might get back to it.
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Postby Naiin » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:22 pm

Please feel free to link some evidence that we declared war on Germany first and that someone or some organization has turned our military into "cop" of the world... if not Im just gonna ignore stuff like that, esp. when 4 mins worth of web surfing brings up 4 million searchs indicating the opposite... well the searches might have had that in them.. only really went to the first 5 or 6 on each topic.. I gotta job, wife, kid, hobbies, eq to do after all =P
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Postby Serano » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:26 pm

Please feel free to link some evidence that we declared war on Germany first and that someone or some organization has turned our military into "cop" of the world... if not Im just gonna ignore stuff like that, esp. when 4 mins worth of web surfing brings up 4 million searchs indicating the opposite... well the searches might have had that in them.. only really went to the first 5 or 6 on each topic.. I gotta job, wife, kid, hobbies, eq to do after all =P


I never said that we declared War on Germany First. That would be stupid to say. The war with Germany because we waited until Japan attacked us was a great failing of Roosevelt's.

And if you don't think our military has been turned into a cop for the world - I just dont' know how to reply to that. Like it or not - we are doing exactly that and have been since WWII was over. The organization that has done it is every Executive administration since and including Truman's. This is in pretty much every source you can find. (with the possible exception of Carter's Administration).
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Postby Naiin » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:56 pm

Saying that GWB started the Iraq war is the same as accusing Franklin Roosevelt for starting World War II. Hitler started that war. The US was duty bound to help the world and ultimately sway the course of the war.


Thanks for responding, I should have stated my question better as to not confuse the issue, I should have asked, where was our moral need for war in Europe in 1941 and how is it even closly related to Sadam the ring-ding tyrant Hussien?

My retort was the Europe brought WWII upon themselves via the Treaty of Versallies (sp?) and drug us into it... the Washington Post (you know, that ol' rag mag) details the nations unwillingness for war in the months leading up to Dec 41, the fact that Hitler was operating the camps was unknown to most of the Germans nvm the rest of the world, Hitler wanted a "Fortress Europe" and we were almost content to let him have it. Our supplying of the Chinese effort to resist Japan is what brought us into the fray along with the Japanese war machine NEEDING the Philipenes, Germany and Italy declared war on us to allow unrestricted naval warfare in the Atlantic.... where is the "moral" war effort... I see us fighting for our very lives....Sadam Hussien hardly presented this level of threat... and if he did.... why in the hell did we do our servicepersons (I dont even know the right damn term ><) the dis-service of only taking a portion of what was asked for... you think Patton was shorted in Africa, not because of a politician he wasnt.....bet McArthur got just about what ever he wanted... and Marshall oversaw VAST sums of money in the reconstruction.

All this is from World Civ 1879-present Poly Sci 114 NCSU (I went to college fer a lil while huhuhuhuh-heeeeeeeehhhhh) had to crack the ol notes out >.< gawd my handwritting is bad, high skewl,....and web surfing.
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Postby Serano » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:05 pm

Not disagreeing with much of that. What I am saying is that the US reluctance to enter WWII until we did cost American (and Allied) lives. We were going to get into that war once it started. Delaying it by claiming Isolationism was the same as an ostrich sticking his head in the sand to avoid danger. Naive. D-Day would not have cost us 20K us lives on one beach if we had stepped in before France was completely occupied.

I am admittedly still confused on how France got invaded - they did have a wall after all.
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Postby Adlewiese » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:43 am

Lerch, Iraq WMD's are not lies or etc....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html

So why isn't this major breaking news?

Because the WMDs are said to be manufactured before 1991....not in recent years. Therefore, the mainstream media and the Democrats don't count those. For some reason, they want WMDs made in recent years. Evidently the left likes their mustard gas just a little fresher. But that's not the point. This stuff can kill ... but to the left it's harmless.

All that matters is Saddam Hussein was lying when he said he got rid of all his WMDs. He clearly did not. Also, what do you suppose would have happened had Hussein sold some of these WMD's to Islamic terrorists? It wouldn't have been pretty. But this story will be ignored...and the leftist propaganda machine that says Saddam Hussein wasn't a threat will roll on.

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Postby Bilnick » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:11 pm

Serano wrote:I am admittedly still confused on how France got invaded - they did have a wall after all.


Haha...

Maybe they thought the Germans forgot how to fly.
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Postby Horcrux » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:24 pm

Serano wrote:I am admittedly still confused on how France got invaded - they did have a wall after all.


You answered your own question, they are French.
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Postby Jimbop » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:31 pm

I still stick to one of my primary thoughts in life: Politics sucks!
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Common American Knowledge

Postby bill » Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:22 pm

I thought it was interesting about the claim that more lives were lost in WW2 by America than the American Civil War. So I went to Wikipedia to see what they had to say.

If you look up American Civil War, the total casualties run up to 360,000 dead from the North combined with 258,000 from the South for approximately 620,000 dead.

When I look up WW2 American casualties, I see 405,000 dead.

Can someone site a source that supports that claim, I can't find one. Thanks.
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Postby Horcrux » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:08 pm

Wikipedia is updated by everyday internet surfers. They have fact checkers that come behind to check on updates, but they can't always keep up with updates. Because of that, Wikipedia is not the greatest source to utilize.
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HEROES comes back September 15th with a 3 hour premier!
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My request still stands

Postby bill » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:24 pm

Haha, I was gonna write a scathingly sarcastic remark, but I'll spare you my retort. I understand that WIkipedia is an open source collection of information. I also checked other sources which surprisingly enough, state the same thing.

Which was why I asked, can someone cite a source that proves Wikipedia wrong on that claim? Because I cannot. I didn't ask because I only checked Wikipedia and then stopped, sorry for omitting that information.

A typical response to a question is to undermine the source in question, instead of actually attempting to answer the question. I thought you wouldn't fall into that sorta mentality.

How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct.

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Postby Horcrux » Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:03 pm

I cant remember what I looked up at the time, but in a wikipedia entry under a certain word, every time that word was in the page it was respelled adding a couple letters to say a completely different word. Was kind of funny, and just proof enough that if someone wants, they can hijack a good source of information whenever they want.

And if you notice Drannor, I have not posted a single shred of information to or from the actual debate going on lol. I've focused more on the reliability of the facts going into the debate rather than the actual facts themselves.
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