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Postby lerchinc » Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:25 am

Yeah we know what we had when we planned Cuba. Google those pictures. Its not the pictures but the pictures plus the word of a liar that brought Powell to the UN. And lets I havent even talk about Chalabi. A man that was convicted of bank fraud. A man that no one in Iraqi society from what I have read trusted or wanted around we pushed to get him involved. This is a man that when the invasion actually happened recruited his own little army and took information from Iraqi ministries and pretty much held us for ransom till (the only smart thing Bush did in this little debacle) told him to go away.
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Postby Worff » Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:38 am

Serano wrote: Damn - those Rwandins killed Millions. And the US did nothing there but pull out our Embassy.


Because they had nothing of value or strategic positioning or anything that we wanted /shrug
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Postby Naiin » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:21 am

Serano wrote:
Yeah and what have we gotten for our trouble in Iraq. NOT A DAMN THING!


For our trouble - the Kuwaiti peeps are living in charge of their own country. Saudi Arabia is still in charge of its own destiny. Israel is still a Sovereign nation and is no longer getting attacked by Scuds. Qatarians and Baharainians live with security. The Kurdish segment of Iraq has built THRIVING communities in the north with as much sophistication as some of our top US cities in Urban Areas like San Diego, LA, Seattle. Northern Iraq is doing GREAT with practically no violence other than normal Crime.

So what have we got? What does it matter. We have aided the cause of Freedom the same we did in Europe during WW I, WW II, the freedom of the South Koreans from assimilation from the North Korean/Chinese alliance in the 1950s, The Freedom of the Albanians, Croatians, Slovanians, Kosovans, and Even Free Serbians. That is what we got. Little appreciation from the world for doing what few other countries have done. Sacrificed the blood of our Free men and women to serve the cause of Global Freedom from Tyranny and Genocide. DO we do this everywhere? no. We have failed in some places, gone in late in others, left in others when it was unpopular to approval ratings in election years. But we do what we can. You're welcome world.

Yes - we were a supporter of Iraq when they were attacking Iran. Iran Ditched their Sovereign monarchy that the US supported since 53. And in doing so declared war on the US. IT makes perfect since that if his neighbor Iraq wants to bloody up Iran we would support an enemy of our enemy. Jimmy Carter really screwed that up when Iran declared war against the US and he just took it like a chump sending one sortie of Helicopters to crash and then call it quits. Leaving office in disgrace. So the Regan Government supported someone that was going to war with Iran - in what admittedly was a poorly planned, poorly executed attempt at land/port/ and oil grab. In retrospect it was not such a good idea to ally with that regime. It certainly wasn't a good idea to Ally with the Diem regime either. Yes our government makes mistakes.

But to blame Bush for a situation That Carter created is just foolish.

go in front of the world and basically "sell" our war effort to the UN... ALL LIES as it turned out, no wonder he quit.


There is a severe difference between being fooled by a deliberate Deception plan waged by the Saddam Regime and telling lies. Do not forget. The Saddam regime deliberately created false message traffic indicating an active bio and nuke weapons program. We had real satellite imagery of his props that he was using to convince us and the world that he had an active bio weapons program that was mobile and contained within trailers that he moved around. We found those vehicles. They were props. Shells. Saddam Hussein waged the ultimate decepetion campaign from Craters painted on perfectly good runways, to fake mobile labs to, fake tanks and airplanes in dozens of locations to paint a position of dominance.

When we rolled into those areas we found tons of non-functional Aircraft, vehicles, tanks, APCs. All a deception Campaign. The most Successful in History. Unfortunately by sending the message that he had this stuff then actively hiding it from inspectors, sending message traffic about moving these items to his commanders, giving instructions to commanders to use chemical weapons that didn't exist, etc - This man postured so well - we went to war against him for convincing us that he had violated the treaty far worse than he really had. HE paid for his posturing like some bullys do. He got dethroned and ultimately killed by the survivors of his oppressive regime. IN the midst of all of the deception - the truth was that he did have chem weapons - that were old, had used them against the citizens it was his duty as leader to protect, slaughtered thousands to protect his nightmarish regime, suborned the wanton Torture, rape, execution and destruction of his people.

That regime needed to be taken out and when 11 years of diplomacy failed the US enforced the Law. The US has failed terribly in many things in Iraq. We did not understand the existing Insurgencies that were organized under The Bath'est regime, we did not have a plan to create a government or protect the people that we liberated. The US has failed the people of Iraq and is currently doing what they think best to help the people survive the circumstance we created. Leaving early will only lead to a worse situation than the one that exists with us there.


*cough Bullshit... links to references or go away...Enforced the Law.../snicker... btw when we gonna enforce it on ourselves this is ridiculous,but as Serano says.. the US is here to enforce the Law laid down by the UN.... INVADE WASHINGTON DC....
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Postby Naiin » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:44 am

Worff wrote:
Serano wrote: Damn - those Rwandins killed Millions. And the US did nothing there but pull out our Embassy.


Because they had nothing of value or strategic positioning or anything that we wanted /shrug


now we have Darfur

Where is the US enforcing the LAW and stop this??... Maybe Worff was right (maybe hell...) and they are just not rich enough for us to help.... if only there were oil or commies over there... we'd be there in a flash Id bet....

So, we need to either accept (a dumb idea IMO) or reject the idea of being the "cop" of the world.
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Postby lerchinc » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:06 pm

ok if Bush isnt lying why wont he declassify information that pretty much everyone involved wants declassified?

http://www.examiner.com/a-797444~White_ ... hington_DC
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Postby Offem » Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:24 pm

Perhaps 'cause it's on a need-to-know basis and we don't need to know.
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Postby Naiin » Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:45 pm

Offem wrote:Perhaps 'cause it's on a need-to-know basis and we don't need to know.


LOL... I would make it "need to know" also if I lied... sheesh...

But the White House believes the declassification would trigger another round of negative news media coverage and Democratic-led congressional hearings, said a Senate Republican, who asked to remain anonymous because of ongoing private discussions.


Seems like the only people that need to know... dont.


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That tank commander was ordered to run that guy over.... did he? No, why? Because he used his brain and good sense his family raised him with to decide, that man posed no real threat and killing him served no moral purpose. Insubordination is a serious thing, and must not be entered into lightly... but "I was ordered to do it" is not a reasonable defense for a War Crime or act of visciousness (like squashing a guy w/ a tank).

Evil can only thrive when good men do nothing. -Edmund Burke


I watched the UN hearings with Colin Powell, I heard the words that left his mouth, I saw the photos/visuals he provided. I and many more.... I would be willing to wager.

For those of us that give a shit

Page 60 point #8 clearly defines what the Bush adminstration did and why they did it... *cough wag the dog

Page 79 is of particular intrest... because it sure sounds like Colin was justifying our need to go to war (btw which none of the UN really jumped on board with like the first gulf war... hmmmm wonder why.../sarcasim off)... my Granddaddy always told me..."if they have to provide more than 2 reasons for you to buy it... then dont, more than likely its all BS anyways. Never had to be "sold" on what I really needed"..... not always correct, but been good advice....
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Postby Serano » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:07 am

President Lincoln, writing on the
same point during the 1848 war with Mexico, was
eerily prescient:
Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation
whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel
an invasion . . . and you allow him to make war at
pleasure . . .


Hah hah - Prescient to Lincoln's own war against former US citizens that he defeated in order to make them Citizens again. Killed more AMericans than all previous wars had That Lincoln. Good thing he got Shot or we would have had an American Version of Saddam Hussein in office.

BTW Naiin - are you saying everything I said is Bullshit because I didn't provide links? My god - I don't have time to link up common historical information. Nothing in my post is classified. IF it was classified I wouldn't be able to post it here.
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Postby lerchinc » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:22 am

I dont think that hes saying everything your saying is BS. I think hes saying that you have swallowed the BS :) there is a difference :) HAHA

Seriously everyone is entitled to their opinion. But when time and time again you are caught lying and still try and cover up your lie with a bigger lie its time you are exposed....Isnt that what we took sadaam out of office for....lying to the weapons inspectors? And before you start the lying crusade again Serano....he knew the yellowcake evidence was fake. Cueball was exposed as a fake well before Powells speech at the UN. These are just the two biggies on Iraq. Lets not get into the promises made to get his sorry ass elected.

Just a thought :)
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Postby Serano » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:27 am

I am on no lying crusade.
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Postby Clarr » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:57 am

I don't have time to link up common historical information.


If you take the time to back up your comments with irrefutable fact those who disbelieve what you have said will be left with no way to discredit your claims.

I will withhold all other personal comment for the voting booth.
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Postby Naiin » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:01 am

Serano wrote:I am on no lying crusade.


I know you beleive what you say, I am NEVER accusing YOU of lying, If I wanna do that I'll say "Serano you are a liar"... Im fairly direct like that... I do believe that if you want to say "It was Americas responsibility to defeat Germany" You need to provide links... because... the established history (documented in memoirs, official govt documents, an news reports of the era do not support this, but indicate the exact opposite) you need to provide a link.... the ones I provide clearly support my points, and the facts can be traced and verified in those links ( I try not to link crazy shit, and if I do I usually mention "this link is a lil out there"


You are correct, The Civil War has laid more Americans dead in the field of battle than any wars before or since (seeing as it was 99% Americans fighting the war on both sides....). I as a proud southerner can seriously say it was the right thing for Lincoln to do. The outcome was not to anyones liking as it never really settled the issue of "states rights" and we are paying for it now. Only because people dont have the time to actively participate in local govt (for the majority of us this is true... btw you make time for what is important).

It took me 15 mins to make the post above, please provide links as I am sure that 80% of the "historical information" you provided was not correct, thats all. There is no law in being wrong, mistaken, or ignorant ( I do all 3 regularly)... but refusing to accept a fact when all evidence points to it, or constantly making the same mistake over and over... is just plain dumb (not you Serano.. we as a country).
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Postby Bilnick » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:23 am

What has Serano said that you dispute? Did we not aid Europe in WWI or II? Was there no American Civil War?

I tend to agree with Serano.....what he has posted is generally considered common knowledge.
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Postby Goofydoofy » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:26 pm

Common knowledge is like common sense. It isn't common.
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Postby lerchinc » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:41 pm

So is what I have posted :google
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