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Postby Worff » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:54 pm

Funny thing is .. I forgot all about the fun site Serano posted to start this thread :P
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Postby Goofydoofy » Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:01 pm

Who the hell is Serano?
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Postby Antok » Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:53 pm

Worff wrote:Antok, I (among others) used DKP to illustrate a point, not compare apples to apples... it could be viewed as a scaled down simplified economy, so it's very good to make the point. I'm not at all suggesting that we convert to communism, what I'm suggesting is taking what we have and making it better for everyone, not just the top dogs. DKP was perfect to use as an example to try and explain the bigger picture of a more complex economy.

yeah, I know - I was actually more ragging on areo's characterization of our DKP system as conservative.

Adlewiese wrote:Well since communism is defined as an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production, I would have to say TF is definitely not communistic.

TF gets paid DKP for raids and spends it under a set of rules ... capatalism (auctions conducted with rules to maintain order). Most of the dkp rules are along the lines of establishing fair pay scales (who is eligible to earn dkp with some restrictions on when or how you can spend your hard earned dkp).

just to be clear --

communism is used to refer to three things -- the idealogy that espouses the idea that we should try to transition to a classless stateless society, that end state (that is, a classless stateless society,) and also the form of transitional government between capitalism and true communism.

I was using it to refer to the latter of the three.

You're right; it's definitely not a perfect match. But I would argue very strongly that TF's economic system is certainly closer to communism than anything that has ever been branded conservatism.

we have an essentially state-owned means of production, that hands out rewards on a scale that is not based on each individual's contribution to the raid. (Yes, people do get more DKP if they raid more, but for every hour a 6khp sk raids, he gets the same DKP that a raidleader or an 18khp SK would get. This also assumes that the value that items are auctioned off for is their true value, which obviously has some flaws, but is prolly good enough here.)

universal wage rates -- not just minimum, but saying "everyone will be paid $1/hour" would never fly in any conservative society.

We're certainly not communist, but given our loot distribution system and leadership, we're a hell of a lot closer to communist than conservative.

If going to Harvard, Florida State, or Michigan is too expensive, go to community college for the first couple of years. Calculus is calculus no matter where you take it. What school you get your degree from is largely irrelevant anyway.

calculus isn't at all the same at Mesa (my local JC) as compared to a higher institution -- and polisci/english/anything not entirely numerical CERTAINLY isn't the same.

I took a JC calculus course this year. It was fairly different in terms of material covered than courses friends have taken at good four year universities - but the massive difference wasn't material, it was the instructor. I can go further in to that if you want -- but there is just a MASSIVE difference between a good teacher who knows the material and a bad teacher who doesn't.

I'm boxing missions, so submitting this now - I'll just edit anything that doesn't make sense or that I forgot
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Postby Areo » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:17 pm

Well I appreciate the "ragging" on my opinion. Thanks.
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Postby Naiin » Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:45 pm

Lets not confuse history with media spin.
Saying that GWB started the Iraq war is the same as accusing Franklin Roosevelt for starting World War II. Hitler started that war. The US was duty bound to help the world and ultimately sway the course of the war.


This sounds like Military Intelligence spun madly wrong =/. /snicker

1. Hitler Violated a non-agression pact to not invade Czechloslovakia,and then France and GB declared War on him, soooooo in a round about way, Hitler forced others into war to stop him from land-grabbing. (btw if the Treaty of Versailles hadnt attempted to strangle the German populace into poverty, the German people wouldnt have looked for any way to get out of that,.. Hitler brought pride and dignity.. so they looked the other way on his more insane aspects)

2. The US practiced a form of foreign policy called "Isolationism" up until Dec 7 1941... When the Japanese attacked US... btw we didnt declare war on Germany, they declared war on us shortly after we declared war on Japan.... omg.. its called a book.. open one...:google We got into the Second world war because we were drug BY OUR HAIR kicking and screeming... amazingly enough we allocated enough troops and equipment :finger GWB... history will judge you.
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Postby lerchinc » Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:04 pm

Again someone swallowed the red pill. Bush took this country to war. He had a choice. The acts of agression that he claims we went to war to stop had been at least 10 years old. The intelligence that he claims to have had regarding WMDs has proven to have been false or made up.

And just to make sure that no one sees any insight into his war planning the moron is trying to say that him and Cheney are exempt from an executive order that HE signed. The White House is trying to say that his intention was to exempt the president and vice president. Well the intention was to cover his ass.
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Postby Worff » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:38 pm

Treat others as you'd like to be treated yourself. That doesn't just apply to individuals, but to larger masses as well... like a country. If we do nothing but screw other countries over and treat them like crap or 3rd class trash... well sooner or later we're gonna get popped in the face for it. Then we'll scream and use that sucker punch (thats all someone can do to someone as big as us, is a sucker punch) as a reason to beat them to a bloody pulp :P
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Postby Serano » Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:02 am

You are right. The Iraqi leadership did feed misinformation about their WMD programs to the world with false orders to arm weapons that did not exist.

And a minimum of 37 x 55 Gallon drums of GB(Sarin) were captured at an Artillary plant.

So while there were not huge stockpiles of missiles and WMD - there were tons of violations to the UN treaty over 11 years. The rampant Expulsion of UN Inspectors and the various weapons programs he did pursue. If you guys want peeps to invade other countries, get repulsed under conditions and then after 11 years still do nothing about enforcing those conditions - I shudder to think of the future Dictators that will kill and oppress people of the World.

I suggest anyone that is interested do some research on the agreements Iraq/Saddam made when we kicked him out of Kuwait.

The World vs Iraq was because of Hitler like aggression. Learning from History we reversed the annexation of a sovereign nation at its first victory - instead of isolationism. Since he didn't follow the surrender he made - the World was beholden to enforce the "so What" of the treaty that allowed him to stay in power. Unfortunatly the World is not so good at enforcing UN treaties. So the US with few allies did it for the World. You are welcome.

And dismiss me about not reading History. Really. Yes everyone knows that we declared war on Japan and Germany activated their Alliance and decared war on us. But how smart was it for us to wait until we were attacked to get into that one?
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Postby lerchinc » Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:18 am

Yeah Fox news boy we found those drums. And they were also over 10 years old and relatively harmless. NEXT!

Hey I know he screwed the UN. Im not saying the guy was clean. But damn he even said once we found his stupid ass that he was just trying to put the US on edge. Yeah and what have we gotten for our trouble in Iraq. NOT A DAMN THING! I mean shit if your going to go in for oil, and thats what were doing there, the least haliburton could do would be to lower the prices. But that would defeat the purpose of the Bush administration. What this war has done is just to put more money in the pockets of the friends of the Bush family. Lets just take a look here. Blackwater? Who runs Blackwater....COFER BLACK! What did he do before Blackwater....he was running counterterrorism for the CIA. Why work for the government when you can start your own company and get over paid to do the same job you were doing for your country. Or damn just look at Cheney he was still getting paid 150k from haliburton all the way up to 05.

As far as the isolationist policy of FDR? Yeah you can probably say that it wasnt that smart. But at least when he whipped it out...he whipped it out. Bush talking all that shit about dead or alive and he send half the amount of troops that his generals said he should take. Yeah you know those people that actually have been taught how to wage war.

What this war and this adminstration has done is make us a pariah in the international community and widened the gap in the classes in this country. Thats it. Bush and his company have done more to set this country back than any president in history!

/flameon
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Postby Naiin » Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:38 pm

I suggest anyone that is interested do some research on the agreements Iraq/Saddam made when we kicked him out of Kuwait.

The World vs Iraq was because of Hitler like aggression.


Then treat it like a "Hitler" situation, Teddy Roosevelt said it best if you arent going the Isolationism route.... Speak softly and carry A BIG STICK.

No one gives a shit about sabre rattling, as a matter of fact, it just shows how little power you really have.

The more you use your power, the more it is evident to all, how LITTLE power you really have. Sadam thumbed his nose at us with lies and bullshit terror tactics (ohh yeah he could bomb the US... puuhhleeezz... what total bullshit.. btw he hated Al'Qeada) and dared us to do something about it, and the world laughed when it was READILY evident to all, he wasnt about to conform one bit.

Here is an analogy, the biggest kid (USA) in school wants you(IRAQ) to stop telling nasty rumors and give him respect, also you pushed his lil buddy around... You as a lil punk, resist... he beats the friggin tar outa ya.. in front of everyone, you even have to beg for mercy... but the next day, you are right back at it.... pretty soon.. the big kid loses his credabilty and the other lil punks will team up and give him a nasty surprise. (much akin to Worffs analolgy). I went to a private school for 4 years... been there done that, only seen EVERY bully get his asss beat, and beat severely once everyone realized just what he was and was not capable of doing (combat boot swung by its laces to the grill in your sleep will wake you up nicely... and you gotta sleep sometime)

So... we trained Ossama, we trained HoChi Minh, we trained Saddam (hell we armed him), we trained Noriega (sp? to lazy to look up teh pinneapplefaced bahstids name), how many more times are we gonna fuck ourselves before we learn to stick to our own bizness, QUIETLY, and when someone attacks us, follow naval miltary doctrine that has worked for 150 years .... overwhelming firepower, concentrated in a narrow corridor, with AT LEAST 2:1 advantage in numbers... worked great in the pacific in WWII. Worked great in our surge across the Pacific, Manilla, Iwa Jima, Midway, etc... oh yeah.. Torch (Invasion of Africa), Anzio (Invasion of Italy), Cobra (the surge after Normandy landing), etc, etc, etc.... omg looks like to me... it works WHEN WE USE IT.

Nevermind the fact, GWB let Collin Powell ( a true man of Honor /salute) go in front of the world and basically "sell" our war effort to the UN... ALL LIES as it turned out, no wonder he quit... :finger GWB.. like I sad, history will judge you.
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Postby lerchinc » Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:00 pm

Amen brotha Naiin preach! HAHAHA
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Postby Goofydoofy » Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:57 pm

This thread is a key example of what is wrong with this country. People spending way to much time on politics insteads of just killing the idiots.
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Postby Serano » Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:22 pm

Yeah and what have we gotten for our trouble in Iraq. NOT A DAMN THING!


For our trouble - the Kuwaiti peeps are living in charge of their own country. Saudi Arabia is still in charge of its own destiny. Israel is still a Sovereign nation and is no longer getting attacked by Scuds. Qatarians and Baharainians live with security. The Kurdish segment of Iraq has built THRIVING communities in the north with as much sophistication as some of our top US cities in Urban Areas like San Diego, LA, Seattle. Northern Iraq is doing GREAT with practically no violence other than normal Crime.

So what have we got? What does it matter. We have aided the cause of Freedom the same we did in Europe during WW I, WW II, the freedom of the South Koreans from assimilation from the North Korean/Chinese alliance in the 1950s, The Freedom of the Albanians, Croatians, Slovanians, Kosovans, and Even Free Serbians. That is what we got. Little appreciation from the world for doing what few other countries have done. Sacrificed the blood of our Free men and women to serve the cause of Global Freedom from Tyranny and Genocide. DO we do this everywhere? no. We have failed in some places, gone in late in others, left in others when it was unpopular to approval ratings in election years. But we do what we can. You're welcome world.

Yes - we were a supporter of Iraq when they were attacking Iran. Iran Ditched their Sovereign monarchy that the US supported since 53. And in doing so declared war on the US. IT makes perfect since that if his neighbor Iraq wants to bloody up Iran we would support an enemy of our enemy. Jimmy Carter really screwed that up when Iran declared war against the US and he just took it like a chump sending one sortie of Helicopters to crash and then call it quits. Leaving office in disgrace. So the Regan Government supported someone that was going to war with Iran - in what admittedly was a poorly planned, poorly executed attempt at land/port/ and oil grab. In retrospect it was not such a good idea to ally with that regime. It certainly wasn't a good idea to Ally with the Diem regime either. Yes our government makes mistakes.

But to blame Bush for a situation That Carter created is just foolish.

go in front of the world and basically "sell" our war effort to the UN... ALL LIES as it turned out, no wonder he quit.


There is a severe difference between being fooled by a deliberate Deception plan waged by the Saddam Regime and telling lies. Do not forget. The Saddam regime deliberately created false message traffic indicating an active bio and nuke weapons program. We had real satellite imagery of his props that he was using to convince us and the world that he had an active bio weapons program that was mobile and contained within trailers that he moved around. We found those vehicles. They were props. Shells. Saddam Hussein waged the ultimate decepetion campaign from Craters painted on perfectly good runways, to fake mobile labs to, fake tanks and airplanes in dozens of locations to paint a position of dominance.

When we rolled into those areas we found tons of non-functional Aircraft, vehicles, tanks, APCs. All a deception Campaign. The most Successful in History. Unfortunately by sending the message that he had this stuff then actively hiding it from inspectors, sending message traffic about moving these items to his commanders, giving instructions to commanders to use chemical weapons that didn't exist, etc - This man postured so well - we went to war against him for convincing us that he had violated the treaty far worse than he really had. HE paid for his posturing like some bullys do. He got dethroned and ultimately killed by the survivors of his oppressive regime. IN the midst of all of the deception - the truth was that he did have chem weapons - that were old, had used them against the citizens it was his duty as leader to protect, slaughtered thousands to protect his nightmarish regime, suborned the wanton Torture, rape, execution and destruction of his people.

That regime needed to be taken out and when 11 years of diplomacy failed the US enforced the Law. The US has failed terribly in many things in Iraq. We did not understand the existing Insurgencies that were organized under The Bath'est regime, we did not have a plan to create a government or protect the people that we liberated. The US has failed the people of Iraq and is currently doing what they think best to help the people survive the circumstance we created. Leaving early will only lead to a worse situation than the one that exists with us there.
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Postby lerchinc » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:09 am

There is a severe difference between being fooled by a deliberate Deception plan waged by the Saddam Regime and telling lies


I love it when people try and make distinctions like this. Well how about going directly to what was said especially on the chemical weapons issue. Alot of what Powell went to the UN with was based on intelligence from an individual code named cueball. This gentleman was a German intelligence asset that even the German government didnt believe. Yet the Bush administration had the intelligence that they thought they could sell. They were going for the big bang that Stevenson had when he went infront of the UN during the Cuban Missile crisis. The difference was the proof then was real...not made up.
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Postby Serano » Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:02 am

Do we really know what was in Cuba? we have satellite pictures. We had Satellite pictures of things that looked like mobile bio labs and Airplanes in Iraq. Same Types of pictures. So far as we know the missiles that were in Cuba were removed and taken somewhere by the Russians. Do we know they were there? We have History books and pictures to tell us so.

Same that Powell had. Listen =- When Powell was presenting his case to the UN - he believed it. If you believe what you are saying - then you are not lying. You are wrong. there is a Serious distinction there.

Sure they had bad intel - no one is going to dispute that. They had a culture of suspision which fed belief in Intelligence that supported the suspicion. IT is a common mistake. Face it, Group think can occur at the highest levels.

Saddam Hussein had believed that because of one WEAK British ambasador's comment that the world wouldn't do anything when he invaded Kuwait. The Bush administration had a group think that since Saddam Hussein led on that he had stuff and purposfully decieved the world about it - they bought it hook line and sinker. They were wrong. But what they were NOT wrong about was that he had violated the UN treaty and had killed 10s of thousands of his own people and was a mass murderer and genocidist on the scale of the Rwandin, Sudanise, and Serbian level - worse than all of them save Rwanda. Damn - those Rwandins killed Millions. And the US did nothing there but pull out our Embassy.
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