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Postby Naiin » Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:27 pm

zyzzerzazz wrote:The liberals want to better the quality of life directly.

Offering great students who cannot afford college is a REALLY good thing.

I will pay taxes for that. I wont, its outside the scope of the constitution, on the other hand, I WOULD/DO donate to educational initiatives public and private that seem reasonable TO ME.... it is my money after all. This is far to wealthy a country to not educate our young/willing, but it is not the FEDERAL govt.'s job.

Offering healthcare to a single mother and her 2 kids is a really good thing.

I would pay taxes for that. I wont, pretty much for the same reasons above, outside the scope of the constituion; therefore not the FEDERAL govt.'s job.

In the end, those students and those families will have a better life. They will raise kids who dont want to steal my kids bikes or sell them drugs.. Thus life for me will be better. Even more reason for the communities to get involved, not the FEDERAL govt.

For those reasons, I am ok with less fortunate people a bigger cut of my taxes.

but I will be damned, if people who are making 200k+/year should get a cut of me money. THEY DONT NEED IT....lol Unfortunately, we arent allowed to make that decision in the current system... Just like the federal govt forced our states into enacting laws to require the citizenry to wear seatbelts under penalty of law because we as citizens (you know the taxpayers?) are not fit to make that judgement.... btw only idiots dont wear their seat belts...i bet someone will retort w/ the " I dont want to pay their hospital bills" argument.... btw thats outside the scope of the constitution also. ie Not the FEDERAL govt's job.... but I digress. My point is, when we stop acting outside the scope of the "contract" our states have with one another, we will be required to be slightly more active citizens in LOCAL govt, but the results would be shocking IMO.



Re-read the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States of America, tell me where it ENFORCE the general welfare.

In order to provide for a more perfect union,

To provide for the common defense, (pay/manitain a standing army sufficient enough to repell all aggressors)- Ill gladly pay

To Promote the general Welfare, here is the definition of Promote straight from Marrion-Websters and I quote "Main Entry: pro·mote
Pronunciation: pr&-'mOt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Forms: pro·mot·ed; pro·mot·ing
: to cause or contribute to the growth, development, or occurrence of" Yeah Ill pay for Federal Highways/Communication infrastructure/Scientific Research into beneficial technologies.

Do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.

Thats it... thats the whole thing in a nutshell... why do I say this? Well lets ask Marrion-Websters what Preamble means.... and I quote: "Main Entry: pre·am·ble
Pronunciation: 'prE-"am-b&l, prE-'am-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French preambule, from Medieval Latin preambulum, from Late Latin, neuter of preambulus walking in front of, from Latin prae- + ambulare to walk
: an introductory statement (as to a contract); especially : the introductory part of a constitution or statute that usually states the reasons for and intent of the law
NOTE: While preambles do not state law and therefore are not judicially enforceable, they are used to determine legislative intent when interpreting statutes."

So, is there someone that doesnt have to "spin" something, that can please explain why we are acting so very far outside those simplistic bounds? If states and cities and towns or counties want asinine laws that make sense to the locals.... hell more power to them, just dont make everyone in the country subject to said F'd up laws... its silly, wasteful, and unconstitutional IMO...
Constituional Republicanism FTW (no its not a political party... its a political ideology =P)

BTW there wouldnt be a need for income taxes then would there? If we all stuck to the letter of the law....
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Postby Areo » Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:35 pm

But shouldn't we help them out more? I mean we do have a system where if you work hard enough and put the time and energy into it, you can get anywhere, build a toon to rival the gods. But as a guild shouldn't we give back more, I would hate to see a possible great player not get the chance he deserves because we didn't give him the gear he needs to be successful.

I just don't feel like our current sytem gives enough to those that don't have. We should do more, how can anyone expect to be on par when some items go for 90 to 100 dkp. Sheesh! Theres just no way. With the toons having played so long and got so much, even some of our current players have bought there accounts. Thats almost like a hand out to get what you have. Thats just not fair.

Boxes and Alts Unite!!! We deserve to get what we haven't earned!!!!
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Postby Adlewiese » Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:47 pm

Fairtax man. It's really simple... you choose how much tax you pay.

ie. buy $150,000 home and you pay the 21% federal sales tax ($31,500) on that (btw a $150,000 home would still only cost you about $150,000 because all the hidden taxes would be removed which is about 25% of the cost).

Buy a $500,000 home and you pay $105,000 in taxes.

OR, choose to own 6 vehicles (cars, boats, motorcyles) and you pay tax for each one you buy... your choice.
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Postby Areo » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:16 pm

And another thing, seriously, aren't Dran and Zyzz real life friends?!? What kind of system allows for transfer of leadership through a mere friendship. Jaella getting officer just because shes Isens girlfriend. Sheesh! Uilea and Jah, do't even get me started. Its all a plot to keep my boxes and alts down. Nevermind that these people qualify for these positions, its gotta be to keep my boxes and alts down.

Also, I'm going to need some account info if this is going to be a true affirmitive action. I see toons on here who have alot, helping toons who also have alot. They box each other when they need it and its all for the good of themselves. No one ever thinks about my poor boxes and alts when their using others accounts. Its just the haves keeping the have nots down. Its just not fair.

Boxes and Alts Unite!! We deserve to get what we haven't earned!!!!

Sometimes its hard to see others point of view. They seem like they have so much and they just aren't thinking about the little guy. Sometimes its true and sometimes it not, but in the end we are all just people doing what we think is best for whatever we feel is most important to us.

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Postby Serano » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:45 pm

lerchinc wrote:And let me ask our conservative pally who is going to pay for this war that GWB started. The money has to come from somewhere...


Lets not confuse history with media spin.

Saddam Husein started this war when He invaded Kuwait. Saying that GWB started the Iraq war is the same as accusing Franklin Roosevelt for starting World War II. Hitler started that war. The US was duty bound to help the world and ultimately sway the course of the war. The difference here is that we repulsed him and forced a surrender at the first country he conquered unlike against Hitler. When he reneged on the treaty for 11 years - the United States enforced the treaty. Unfortunately - there are 50 year old problems that a terrible Dictator kept under place by rampant human rights abuses. Ok Human rights abuses is stupid. by an Iron fisted and bloody enforcement of dictatorship. These underlying problems have risen to the surface without a terrible killer disposing of anyone opposing his power. We are a kindler and gentler occupier than the Saddam Regime was. This kindler gentler occupation is killing us. And the Iraqis.

The North Koreans (and China with Stalin's delight) started the Korean War. The US was Duty bound to stop it.

Ho Che Minh Started the Viet Nam War in order to reverse the lines drawn by the French in Viet Nam. The US thought they were doing a good thing by standing behind the Despot that the French and US stood up there - to oppose the Dictator under the guise of "for the People" from the North. We gave up and left and one dictator beat the other one.


Aero - that was pretty funny. For a serious answer to a comedic post - The system of passing the Guild leadership since the time I was in the guild is the outgoing Guild leader just picks the person that he feels has the best ratio of play time and values for the guild to stand in - and also - is willing to take the tag. TF is not a democracy - it is an oligarchy - but sometimes we ask for the advice of the membership.
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Postby Areo » Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:16 am

I completely understand, was just applying real world beliefs to our little online game. Same thing happens in the real world and I'm sure they are thinking that the people they picked were the best canidates, including their friends. I love our guild and its officers and leader, i think they all do a great job. I just feel that all the conservative and republican hate that gets past around looks different when your the one looking down.

It bugs me that we have a system through a game that rewards the people who go out and work hard and get what they deserve. And everyone here understands that system. But when you talk about real life all of a sudden everyone should get everything for free. We have every oportunity in this country to be successful. You have to be creative and resourceful and work hard, but you can be anything in america. Some countries your locked in to your birth class.

I honestly believe that most liberals beliefs and thoughts are so asinine that the only way they can get elected is to appeal to the uneducated and easily mislead.

I do however find it amusing that when I apply a real world liberal view to our current system, people think its a joke. But in the real world they are taken seriously and get elected to very powerful positions.

I was being serious, that is how they wish to run our country.
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Postby Serano » Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:55 am

Oh so if it was a serious post - then my answer was also accurate.

And another thing, seriously, aren't Dran and Zyzz real life friends?!? What kind of system allows for transfer of leadership through a mere friendship. Jaella getting officer just because shes Isens girlfriend. Sheesh! Uilea and Jah, do't even get me started. Its all a plot to keep my boxes and alts down. Nevermind that these people qualify for these positions, its gotta be to keep my boxes and alts down.


The system that allows for that is an Oligarchy. Which TF is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy
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Postby Uilea » Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:28 am

edit: Nevermind, if I get into this thread I'll just start disliking people

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Postby Antok » Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:00 am

It's pretty silly to try to make any sort of serious political analogy between EQ and the real world -- but if I had to, I would say TF is closer to communism -- which is often viewed as being on the far far left of American liberalism -- than conservatism.

I just feel that all the conservative and republican hate that gets past around looks different when your the one looking down.

I can't dispute that there are a relatively vocal minority of people who ridicule conservatives simply for the sake of ridiculing conservatives, without much grounding in reality.

However -- a very large portion of the current wave of anti-Republican sentiment is based in very real, very valid concerns, and not some deep-rooted hate of the ideals of conservatism.

There is also a vocal minority on the republican side that ridicules liberalism, for the sake of ridiculing liberalism, without even any attempt to understand the issues involved.

State Universities already are heavily funded. Compare the tuition between a private college and a State college.

State universities in many places do not compare as favorably to privates as one might think. I'll be going to uni next year -- and although I will be going to a state school (berkeley,) it was not my cheapest option.

Of the two privates I applied to, both would have cost less than cal. I got merit-based grant money at both privates -- but at one of them, I got LESS than average. (I.E., I would have had to pay more $ to attend yearly than an average accepted student would have.)

I am a relatively liberal person, and would be glad to have a real discussion about particular political issues with pretty much anyone. I've grabbed a couple points in this thread, but ignored most of them, mostly because I'm not sure it would be possible to have a real discussion on our general forums.

[Interesting final note - GWB is NOT a fiscal conservative, even if you ignore the defense spending increases under his administration, and anyone who says he is is pretty much a crackhead.]
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Postby Bilnick » Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:09 am

There is no rule that says if you go to college you have to go full time.

If a full load of classes is too much money, take only one or two classes. Plenty of people go to night school. There are many colleges tailored to working people taking night classes.

I am sure going full time and living in a dorm is a great experience, but it is not required.

If going to Harvard, Florida State, or Michigan is too expensive, go to community college for the first couple of years. Calculus is calculus no matter where you take it. What school you get your degree from is largely irrelevant anyway.
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Postby Adlewiese » Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:02 am

Well since communism is defined as an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production, I would have to say TF is definitely not communistic.

TF gets paid DKP for raids and spends it under a set of rules ... capatalism (auctions conducted with rules to maintain order). Most of the dkp rules are along the lines of establishing fair pay scales (who is eligible to earn dkp with some restrictions on when or how you can spend your hard earned dkp).
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Postby Worff » Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:36 am

Antok, I (among others) used DKP to illustrate a point, not compare apples to apples... it could be viewed as a scaled down simplified economy, so it's very good to make the point. I'm not at all suggesting that we convert to communism, what I'm suggesting is taking what we have and making it better for everyone, not just the top dogs. DKP was perfect to use as an example to try and explain the bigger picture of a more complex economy.
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Postby Serano » Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:19 am

I certainly wouldn't choose to go to Berkley - but that is me. In California we have two state systems. California State Universities and Universities of California. the UCs (second) cost triple what the CalStates(1st) cost. For no reason I have ever been able to figure out some people want to pay more for their education. Berkley is a UC thus more than a Cal State.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California ... University

When I went to Cal State Polytechnic Pomona it cost about $650 bucks a quarter or about $2k a year. That is tuition only. Books cost more - but I bought used and in some classes didn't buy the book. HOwever I had to buy more textbooks for my JR College classes due to the general education of them. Most of my upper division classes at pomona were "books" that were easy to get at used book stores n such. Plato's Republic, being and Nothingness, or other crazy Philosophy books. during JC - I would wait until the first test to see if I needed to buy the book or not. Since I always went to class - the teachers lectured on 90% of the tests so I didn't really need the books.

Now with higher rates and increased inflation of 2-4 % a year since 94

Apparently they have changed their fee system and now charge by the year.

http://www.csumentor.edu/faq/finaid_costs.asp

For 2006-07, California residents attending a California State University (CSU) campus as an undergraduate will pay the State University Fee of $2,520 for the academic year (nine months). Students will also pay an average of $617 in miscellaneous campus fees for average total fees of $3,137 (actual campus fees vary by campus).


altho there are more costs - depends on how you live, how you eat and how you budget. But that is the costs minus books - $3137 per year that you owe the school in California to get the publich education college degree.

It was good enough for me and I will be able to do whatever I want with that degree.
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Postby Offem » Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:30 pm

Here's what I think:

Abolish all taxes; state, federal, social security, and so on.

Give the blue collar workers the monies they deserve. After all, they are actually out there busting their asses and not sitting behind a desk like a white collar workers do. GD corporate monkeys. /rant off

Prevent accessibility of welfare and social services to everyone except those who are legal citizens and can prove they earn considerably less than a person doing the same job and are not able to make ends meet. This should be government funded, not tax funded and paid for by the people.

The government should consider making the occupation of homemaker an actual job, so that homemakers can earn a living, paid for by the government. Seeing as there is such a lack of jobs out there due to illegal immigration and other entities, and seeing how the prices of gas is sky high (not the people's fault, it's the government's fault), thepeople should not have to pay the price of going out, finding daycare that is WAY overpriced, buying a car and paying for insurance (which is required by law), paying for gas, or having to pay fares for public transportation (which sucks also I might add)

College education - yes there are scholarships out there for people who have worked hard to succeed. That's all fine and dandy. But there are people who worked just as hard and could not get a scholarship (possibly being to limitations, learning disabilities, or whatever). The government should fund education for a person, period.

Healthcare - first of all, healthcare should NOT be provided to illegal immigrants. The government should NOT fund hospitals with 'x' amount of dollars to pay for these people. Those funds come out of our tax dollars, and if we didn't have to pay taxes, there would be no monies for this. This will prevent the closing of hospitals, this will enable the government to use those monies for it's own citizens (which negates the claim of why healthcare should not be free). Simply put, if the government wants to tax us and put that money into the healthcare system to pay for illegals, cease that and use it for its own citizens. Then there would not be an issue about healthcare paid for by the government. It's our money anyway, so what's the difference? The only difference is that currently we are paying for illegals' healthcare AND our own.

Finally, there are ways to make our ways of life so much better, and the government can do so much more for its people. Perhaps there wouldn't be such a divide if the government could come to terms with the possibility that what may have worked 200+ years ago does not work now. Perhaps it's time to make a few changes. The biggest problem with change is most people are afraid of it. Just because something has been done a certain way for so long does not make it right.

"It's always been done that way" is not acceptable.
Last edited by Offem on Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Naiin » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:14 pm

Naiin wrote:
So, is there someone that doesnt have to "spin" something, that can please explain why we are acting so very far outside those simplistic bounds? If states and cities and towns or counties want asinine laws that make sense to the locals.... hell more power to them, just dont make everyone in the country subject to said F'd up laws... its silly, wasteful, and unconstitutional IMO...
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