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Postby Areo » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:22 pm

Oh come on now. You honestly don't think that the rich just sit on thier money. Thats the worst thing you can do with it. Money in a saving account or low risk options is just slowly losing value. It won't keep up with inflation. You need to invest your money wisely, especially if you have alot, or else you aren't going to stay rich forever.

The rich people people I've come into contact with in business take huge risks compared to the middle class folks investing in small businesses. The percentage of money owned vs money invested probably isn't that much different, but the amount sure is.

Not supporting tax breaks for the rich but that just seems like a silly statement. Rich people who earned it aren't sitting on it because they know that just means their slowly losing it. And the rich people who are sitting on it are slowly giving it back to someone else anyways. It just might take a few generations.
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Postby lerchinc » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:14 pm

Giving it to someone else...sitting on it....same thing different zip code.

As opposed to the middle class say restuarant owner who reinvests in equipment, a bigger place, more staff...etc etc.

One of the basic tenets of the tax cuts for the rich is they will put it back into the economy. As a whole I dont think that happens. Now for all you republicans and Bush lovers out there I know your going to say that the economy is on the rise. Well it had no other way to go but up. And if you take into account that Bush is in a war economy its pretty easy to see a bull market.
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Postby Worff » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:29 pm

I'm with Zyzz on this issue, the gap is just too big between rich and poor, and even the classes are mislabeled. Middle class (even upper) is no where even thinking about being close to the "middle" between rich and poor. Lerch mentioned trickle-down economics, and its pretty real.. we are being exploited slowly and almost imperceptively over decades, so not many notice... they just wake up one day and go "WTF happened".

Slowly, ever so slowly, the economy will become closer to that of the old Monarchy's where there was royalty and peasants and nothing in between. How is this done? Many ways including various taxes, the rich hoarding wealth, products made to need constant attention and expensive consumables (corporate dependancy), massive Government borrowing, stagnant wages not proportional to increasing inflation (coincidence?), outsourcing USA jobs, and even illegal aliens sucking up our resources then sending earnings back to their country without paying taxes (which is supported by corporate america because its their cheap slave force and the saving go into their pockets, not to the consumer). This is just a short list and in brief summary... it would take far more time than I have to go into more detail... but the bottom line is we are getting fucked over the barrel with no courtesy reach-around... so fat rich bastards can live in their little disney land. Fuck that, I'm ready for some serious change that is more fair to the common folks... which probably means getting rid of everyone in our government and starting over, but they are not going to give up the gravy train without a fight.

What if... 1% of Tribal Fury got 1000 DKP per hour, while the rest only got 1 DKP per hour? And then we made your 1 DKP asses pay taxes to us? And then we charged you 5 times what you bid for an item even tho its not worth that much. Then we'll outsource your raid seat to the best deal from another guild. Sound good? I bet it doesn't sound good to anyone.

Money should be used and not worshipped or hoarded... as if it is then you start to use people instead of money, just to get more of it. Thus it's not a sin to BE rich, but it's a sin to die rich. (metaphorical use of the word sin, don't bust my chops on that hehe)
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Postby Bilnick » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:12 am

The gap is too big? Why the jealousy?

Why do you guys blame the rich for being successful? Why not look at the guy making nothing and ask him why he dropped out of high school or had 4 kids when he/she couldn't possibly support them?

It does not bother me at all that Bill Gates makes more money reading the morning paper than I make in a lifetime. So what. Sure I would like to make more money, but it is not Bill Gates, or Sam Walton's fault I am not.

The top 20% are taxes at a higher rate and pay far more income taxes than the bottom 20% who pay essentially 0%. The poor can't pay any less.

Throw out the income tax that penalizes success and rewards failure. Have a flat sales tax on goods and services.

What stopped you from inventing Dell, Microsoft, Wal Mart, Google, You Tube, The Pocket Fisherman, etc.? Nothing! Why the hate?
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Postby lerchinc » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:22 am

Bil-

Im not for penalizing success. Thats not the point. The point is the tax cuts just dont work. If the purpose of the cuts is to stimulate the economy through the haves letting the money trickle down to the have nots then its just stupid on its face.

And as for the penalizing starting a company. Well I can answer that for ya seeing as though Im in that boat right now. I started a company last year. Now with all the taxes that I have to pay growth is impossible. By growth I mean hiring the people that I need to grow cant happen cause I simply cant afford it.

The system as its set up now is allowing the people who have to stay there and the people who might have to have to keep struggling to get there.
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Postby Goofydoofy » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:00 am

I say we all Robin Hood these rich fuckers. I want some of their money. I've worked my ass off to barely get by. Alot of rich people haven't done shit for what they got. Their parents stole from the less fortunate and made it into a fortune. I say, string the fuckers up and kill em all and split there money amoungst ourselves for hookers and 8balls.
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Postby Worff » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:14 pm

lol Goofy.

Nah Bilnick it's not jealosy .. I have absolutely zero desire to be rich, I'd be very happy with just being able to pay basic bills without having to live paycheck to paycheck... one wrong turn and SMACK you're screwed. When I say basic bills... I'm talking about basic stuff... not luxuries, extravagant creature comforts, vacations, buying kids stupid ass toys every 2 weeks, etc .. I'm talking about rent, utilities, food & water, trash pickup, fuel, insurances required by law or loans, BASIC medical and dental, clothes, etc .. the basic necessities a ton of people live on the edge to barely squeek by... this keeps those masses extremely dependant on corporations and government... it's very easy to get desperate people to do anything you want for cheap (thus is why I have a problem with Wal Mart and companies like that who use cheap labor overseas + a govt that looks the other way while we're invaded by illegal aliens because Wal Mart et al are their buddies)

Again, what I'm desiring is a system that is more fair to the masses. Thats my main point, and I thought it was well illustrated by my Tribal Fury DKP example. If greed and gluttony were so great, why dont we run our guild like that? Because peeps wouldn't stay, and they'd hate the ones hogging everything and ripping them off for so long. Further, I've heard many just be satisfied knowing that other countries are worse (although I beg to differ, a few countries out there aren't bad at all)... and I say thats a cop-out from trying to make our country better and people's lives better.

I don't have all the answers, but I know what we have will not work for much longer. Civil wars and revolutions have started over way less atrocities that go on now, but since we have so many people here only giving a shit about themselves (and huge cultural and idealogical differences), another revolution is pretty much impossible, it just wont happen. So, we have to find another way to slowly change things the way they should be... which I believe starts with opening people's eyes to even acknowlegde a problem exists.
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Postby Redeemed » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:41 pm

Well we all know the civil war was really about using slaves to profit from cheap labor. In a way its similar, however, big corporations are relocating to other countries forfeiting jobs and a large part governmental income. Yes there are import taxes and such, but the cost of labor they're recieving only strengthened the relocation making it more profitable. Although jobs were lost government income was decreased consumers still buy the product (service, commodity) because it sustained price or even lowered, whatever the product commodity service whatever may be. As a contractor 95% of owners I've dealt with sign with the lowest bidder. Halaburton trusted the company on 2 elevator additions but went with an outside company that came $20,000 short of my bid. Needless to say they ended up paying at least that or more in extras because of faulty engineer planning heh.

Chesapeake is the big deal in dallas and they're already skimming off the top by using water in the manufacturing process which causes pollution. There are otherways to mine natural gas that won't cause pollution but that is digging into their pocket books.

Someone has to stand up and like Worff said let the problem be known.
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Postby Serano » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:43 pm

The problem with the DKP example is that it is too simple and does not provide a way up the ladder. People wouldn't mind that system if it wasn't so exagerated.

For example if some people earned 10 DKP per raid and others earned rates between 1-9 but there was a system for becoming a 10 DKP Earner - people would strive to do what was necessary to become one of those.

NOT saying that would work well in our guild but I could see it being attractive for some players.

That is the American way - there is a way to become one of the 10 DKP earners. Or you can be one that earns less.
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Postby Naiin » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:46 pm

Worff wrote:
Money should be used and not worshipped or hoarded... as if it is then you start to use people instead of money, just to get more of it. Thus it's not a sin to BE rich, but it's a sin to die rich. (metaphorical use of the word sin, don't bust my chops on that hehe)



I have heard various versions of that, mostly replacing the words money w/ things,but... that about says it doesnt it, if you die rich, rich beyond your living, and invested nothing back to help the community... Id say you died rather poor then, didnt you? You dont have to give your money all away, but damn reinvest in the society(s) that helped you to become what you are. Andrew Carnege was a cut-throat ruthless business bahstid, BUT he did set up trusts to fund arts and educational endevours that enrich us all many years after his death.

BTW what Serano said tantamounts to the "Gods and Clods" theory.... =P
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Postby lerchinc » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:44 pm

Thank you for proving my point Serano. The problem with the system as is and especially with W in office is the 10 dkp earners are making the rules making it damn near impossible for the 1-9 dkp earners to become 10 dkp earners.

Its the old adage...those with the DKP make the rules :)
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Postby Zyzzerzazz » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:07 am

95% of the rich people in this country were born into their wealth.

The other 5 % are peeple like Sam Walsh and Bill Gates.

GWB and Dickhead Chaney were all given their fortune, and Lerch is right, they are concerned with loss rahter then growth.

The tax breakes tot he 200K$/year income people trusts hte trikkle down effect which is wrong since the xtra money they save will NOT be reinvested, but rather saved.

Trikkle down economics trusts that the rich will SPEND their money - which is completley against the protect vs loss theory rahter then growth.

When Social security was first implemented, the old peeps were given the cash, and if they DIDNT spend it, they didnt get more. Thats what needs to happen for the trikkls down effect to work, they need to be restricted with that tax breaks money - not just drop it in some account for 10 years.

lol

By defniation:

Consertive = Protects the interests of the FEW
Liberal = Protects the interests of the MANY


The few are exactly that, the TOP 1%

The many are the lower 80% of the populatuion.


Why ANY middle or lower calss person would vote Republican(Consertive) is completley beyone me /boggle
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Postby Goofydoofy » Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:00 am

Have we killed any of them yet or is everybody still sitting around debating it?

I've got my green tights and red hat all ready to go!
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Postby Bilnick » Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:43 am

zyzzerzazz wrote:By defniation:

Consertive = Protects the interests of the FEW
Liberal = Protects the interests of the MANY


What dictionary did you find this in? (I assume you meant conservative)

My own general definition of conservative vs liberal is that conservatives will let you keep your money and let you decide how to spend it. That is why generally you will see conservatives call for tax cuts. Liberals want to tax us for what they consider the greater good. Health care for everyone sounds great...right? Free college for everyone sounds great....right? Sure sounds like the liberals are looking out for the needs of the many...right? Of course when you consider that under 20% of Americans dont have health care or only 25-30% (of people over 25) have college degrees, maybe it is the few they are looking out for? If someone told me that they wanted to cut taxes by 5% for all tax payers, that would effect about 80% of the people in the US. The few indeed.

What is wrong with being born into or inheriting money? If your parents die and leave you a few million dollars you aren't going to take it? (of course our idiotic government will want to tax that money a second time....) The thing is everyone in thier 20s right now has almost zero excuse to not be a millionaire one day. Invest a couple thousand dollars a year, get decent returns, and you will easily be a multimillionaire before you are 65.

I generally vote republican, almost entirely on thier likeliness of cutting taxes vs raising taxes. Republicans can blow me on thier stances on stem cell research, religion, and abortion. Not all Republicans are against these things but it is a general party line. I consider myself middle class or lower middle class, others might think differently. I guess it depends on your age and current income.

Zyzz is absolutely right though, the bottom 20% have no interest in voting Republican since any tax cut will not help them. Can't cut a 0% tax rate after all.
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Postby lerchinc » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:02 am

Bil-

You are my favorite type of conservative. The ones that swallow the red pill.

There is nothing wrong with inheriting money. More power to ya. But dont tell me that the trickle down theory works for the betterment of the economy. IT DONT WORK!

As far as conservative protecting the interest of the few I dont understand how this can be argued. Just look at the policies of GWB. Qualifications dont matter for jobs people are given in his government. As long as you have done something that benefited him you will be rewarded.

When his government went to decide energy policy what happens...Cheaney calls in the energy companies to advise on policy. Thats like saying here is the hen house mr wolf.....

Lets not even get into Haliburton...

But back to the tax cuts. They dont work. They never will work. And let me ask our conservative pally who is going to pay for this war that GWB started. The money has to come from somewhere...
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