Military Training Should be Mandatory

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Postby Jaella » Thu May 10, 2007 2:06 am

Antok wrote:Sweden has mandatory military training, and every man of military age is required to keep, at home, an assault rifle.


Ummmm, no.

You're very wrong. Sweden has a VERY restrictive weapon law. VERY restrictive.

Try looking up Switzerland - they might have something like what you said :)
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Postby Jaella » Thu May 10, 2007 2:23 am

And now I finally read the whole thread.

In my opinion when you compare different countries and their legislation about military service and weapons you kinda forget to compare the CULTURES too.

What may function in Denmark or Sweden or Switzerland may NOT function in America because we have different cultures and views.

In Denmark military service is mandatory BUT you are allowed to say no if you don't want to and then do community service in stead.

The whole culture in Denmark and the way we view guns is very very different from the United States so I guess what I am saying is that if it works in one country it might not necessarily work in another country.

Just my 2cp
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Postby lerchinc » Thu May 10, 2007 3:18 am

exactly.

wait for it.

wait for it.

wait for it.

which is why a comparison to nazi germany is dumb.


Hold on wait for it...wait for it....READ WHAT I WAS SAYING ANTOK. I said that it was the people behind the gun cause as a society we need to concentrate on taking care of our own. We need to concentrate on personal responsiblity. The people in Germany were so tired of being in poverty after world war 1 that the Nazis filled a void. Talk like this is filling a void. If this a path we take make no mistake we are filling a void here. The void that we a society makes by letting the government legislate morality.

So yeah it was really dumb.

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:37 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
When the framers wrote the Constitution they put together a very effective method by which to raise an army. AGAIN THE DRAFT!


The framers of the US Constitution (Essentially Madison, Jay and Hamilton) granted Congress the power to raise armies no actual process was indicated - not one preventing conscription nor proscribing it.

Quote:
If the republicans honestly had the testicular fortitude of their convictions they would institute the draft and end this quickly.


I don't understand what this is saying. Instituting a draft in the US wouldn't' actually solve any particular perceived problem. It would simply flood the roles of the military with individuals who have not volunteered to be there. This would expand our roles greater than we have an authorization or need for. That is this was a universal mandatory conscription. Doing a lottery draft like they had prior to 1975 would then not give every one the same American conscription but would have a random sampling of peeps that didn't want to be there in the servi


What I meant by this was if the Republicans of today has the courage of their convictions they would call up the draft and get this over with. As a country the US could call up the kind of response that Alan is asking for. But instead of doing this right we went in half assed without a plan to get it done. The leaders of this country particularly the Sec of Defense tried to reinvent the wheel. IF IT AINT BROKE DONT FIX IT!

Meanwhile - Israel has mandatory 1-2 year conscription for all of its high school graduates (or when they turn 18 if they have stopped going to High school) with exceptions granted to women who marry immediately after high school and a select group of brains that get drafted into civil service of a non-military nature.


Isreal is probably not a good example but it does prove my point. As a country if you live there you have just as good a chance of catching a bullet as you do a ball. They have to be on constant watch for people that are just down the street for someone that wants to kill them. Some would argue that we are in the same position. Dont happen to agree but hey republicans are all entitled to their opinion no matter how wrong it is :)

But here is a flip side of conscription. Wanna tell you a little story. There is a player on Chelsea in the reserves named Ben Sahar. He got picked up by the team at a young age and brought into their system. He plays for the Isreali national team. Hes a big reason at the age of 17 that the national team is doing as well as they are. He doesnt live in Isreal anymore. But once he turns 18 he has to go back to Isreal and serve his time in service to Isreal. Taking this argument back to where it started one of the purposes of this discussion was to teach the youth of the nation some discipline. Well here is a kid that has sacrificed his youth to further himself in a profession. Now last thing I read he was going to go back to Isreal and serve his time but he is going to be further back than the kids in the reserves at the same point in their career. Next year if he wasnt faced with conscription he would be starting first team with Scott Sinclair. That is just wrong imho. This kid has busted his ass to get into a system that is one of the best in the game. Now he has to give up that dream and put his life on hold cause of forced conscription.

Quote:
I remember reading somewhere for example that when you have a baby over there both parents can go on materity leave for some obscene amount of time.


This is true and true for Denmark as well but nothing to do with mandatory military service


Quite true sensei. But it does have alot to do with the root cause of the arguement. The arguement is that discipline needs to be taught to the youth of the country. That there has to be some respect taught to the kids that are growing up in this country. Well that starts at conception. I have never been in Denmark or Sweden or those countries but I would think that those kids know that their parents are going to be around for them. If I remember that article correctly I think one of the parents can stick around till the kids are school age. The kids are taught by their parents the values of right and wrong. The parents are dependant on other people to raise their kids. I am not knocking anyone that has to use daycare. Hell I have done it. But there is something to be said for instilling values and virtue at home. As a country we need to move focus back to taking care of our kids. As it stands right now families have to turn the responsiblity back to the family to teach the children how to live.

Off the soap box now.
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Postby Ceruis » Thu May 10, 2007 5:45 am

Nine weeks of Basic Combat Training will not turn some one into a soldier. It will lay the foundation for such a change to happen though. But that is not the intent of the program I suggest. The intent is to expose young adults to military way of life so that they have an idea of what the military goes through. Simultaneously it will build an infrastructure capable of dealing with a military crisis in which a large number of soldiers need to be trained. Do I expect the program to turn out soldiers? No. I do, however, expect young men and women to learn teamwork, respect, discipline, and confident in themselves.

Some are worried about teaching young adults how to handle weapons especially in light of recent events in Virginia and elsewhere. The truth of the matter is that if some of the students at Virginia Tech had any ideas on how to defend themselves there would not have been over thirty deaths. The same can be said for the terrorist hijacking during 9/11. The simple fact of the matter is that most people in the United States are easily cowed because they lack confident in themselves to effect change in a hostile environment. Some military training may provide the foundation for a more confident and decisive individual.

Everyone will not be able to participate in the training because of physical or mental disabilities. Programs can be developed to let them feel that they have accomplished something worthwhile. There will of course be the rebels who for the most part can be brought to task. As for the die hard objectionist, there are the punishments already mention. If that how they want to live, then by all means let them. Nine weeks out of some one’s life and a semester of college instruction is not an unreasonable request for the freedoms this country enjoys.

Some are comparing this proposal to a draft. It is not. The military has no desire to fill it ranks with disillusioned soldiers. For the most part the soldiers themselves do not want them. However, I believe there is a solid minority that would fully support a draft. Most of their complaints stem from repeated tours around the world while the country as a whole feels very little effect from the war. The basic question is; what makes the people of the United States so worthy of our continued sacrifice?

Furlistab said:

Why is it so important that our kids know how the military works?

"Did you know that 99% of the population has never been in the dental health profession."

Should we make dental training manditory? After all, all those bastard kids who DONT BRUSH THEIR TEETH?!

Nice comparison. I’m sure the Canadian Army appreciates it.


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/snicker .. you were bored weren't you?

Yep. Not for long though. In a couple weeks I'll disappear again for a while. Life is what it is.
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Starting shit

Postby Mechell » Thu May 10, 2007 6:37 am

I agree with Naiin.. My husband was extremely bored and I can picture him sitting back after he posted his essay and reading the storm he brewed up. But I miss him.
Ok on to what he said..lol I've spent time in the military and although I will agree it is not made for all, my husband in his weird way does have a point on the education portion. Most of the American people truely have no concept of what the military sacrafices. I know more than one military wife or member that would appriciate educating the majority of the populace on military standards. Basic training is not all PT and Shooting. I can see where educating the populace would be benifical. Imagine the politician who had a more clear view of what the military life was like before they took office?? Maybe then they wouldn't be so rushed to war or be more educated on what it takes to fight a war.
After spending time in Germany and speaking with some of the people there. As in Denmark, they do have madatory military service for like 2 years or you have to do community service. You get the choice of which one you want to do. Is this right for the US. God only knows. We've never instituted something like that. As Jaella pointed out. What's good for one culture is not good for another.
I don't believe making basic training madatory for all is nessassary the way to go. Though I do appriciate my perspective AFTER I went through basic training (and my husband liked my look). There are people out there that can not complete it. So to put them through it would be pointless and disreruptive. But taking what is equivalent to a semester in college to study and understand the military, I could see the benifits of that.
Our society is so concern with the psycological effect of spanking our children has on our kids. I ask you look at the previous generations. They had no where near the violence in today's society committed BY young adults and younger. As a society we need to monitor or OWN children. But since that does not seem to be the case, I think that's where my husband is getting his ideas for mandatory service.
That being said. I love my husband to death but if he thinks he's going to make our girls go into the military then he's royal mistaken. I believe it should be a volunteered basis for people who WANT to be there and to serve. Mandatory only makes people resent it all the more and get more rebellous in other ways. So Educating good... madatory training not good imo.
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Postby Horcrux » Thu May 10, 2007 7:38 am

Why should everyone have to make the sacrifices that some make? It's not like only people in the military make sacrifices in this world. I'm sacrificing a lot, not the least of which would be a high income job I could easily get otherwise, to teach high school. Do I think everyone should be forced to work in a school at one point or another to see what its like? Hell no, the teaching profession is allready flooded with people who don't want to be there. Some are made for it, some are no. Same goes for military. We all have our special gifts, talents, and interests that define who we are. I know I'm not made for military, just as I know many people are not made for teaching.

And coming from a college student, theres no way in hell I would be for mandating ROTC in college. Especially for my major. You have to jump through enough hoops as it is. And for one, colleges are private institutions (thats the reason you pay thousands to attend them) and are not government controlled like the public education schools. If the government tried to take over US colleges by force like this, that would be a sheer sign to me that America is not the free country it once was.

And, coming from someone whos written enough essays for college, yours is not too well written (to be blunt). You barerly touch on the what and why of your topic, and overbalance it with the how. That and theres a ton of gramatical errors in it.
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Postby Jaella » Thu May 10, 2007 7:48 am

Mechell wrote:As in Denmark, they do have madatory military service for like 2 years or you have to do community service.


Actually, this is how it works in Denmark:

At the age of 18 all males get called in where they first have to either 1) Volunteer, 2) State that the do not wish to do military service or 3) Not have an opinion either way.

If they volunteer I think they get somewhat of a choice as to in which branch they wish to do service. If they state that they do not wish to serve in the military they get assigned some form of community service. If they don't care either way they draw a number and that number determines whether or not they actually have to do military service.

The length of the service (the required amount of time you have to be in the military) used to be 9 months but I think they recently lowered that to 3 months now (Urtasil will know if I'm right or wrong).

This is a solution that works well for Denmark being such a small country that we are and considering the history and culture too.
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Postby Mechell » Thu May 10, 2007 7:56 am

ok.. i was just agreeing with what works better for some cultures but not others.
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Postby Mechell » Thu May 10, 2007 8:13 am

Horcrux wrote:And, coming from someone whos written enough essays for college, yours is not too well written (to be blunt). You barerly touch on the what and why of your topic, and overbalance it with the how. That and theres a ton of gramatical errors in it.


I think he was more into getting his thoughts down than to organize in a traditional set. But thank you Mr. Grammatical police for your astute observation.
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Postby Bilnick » Thu May 10, 2007 8:24 am

I'm sacrificing a lot, not the least of which would be a high income job I could easily get otherwise, to teach high school.


Teachers make decent money for the amount of time thay have to put in. First year or two is alot of work, but the pay was competitive to other fresh out of college jobs, at least it was 10 years ago when my wife started teaching.

My wife never has to work on weekends, only has to work 40 weeks a year, is usually home by 4:30 in the afternoon, never has to travel, has benefits better than probably 95% of Americans, and a full pension when she retires (how many jobs have a guaranteed pension anymore?). Not bad at all actually. I have been kicking around going back to school and getting my teaching degree because of the pay and benefits. No, she will not make 200k a year being a teacher, but it certainly pays the bills.
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Postby Goofydoofy » Thu May 10, 2007 9:05 am

What kind of "military" training are we talking about, anyway? Like being trained by Frances' military where you are taught to not shower and talk like a snob and run from a fight? Or training like a Navy Seal? Lets define the context of the training here. In Sweden, you spend half of your training being taught how to yoddle. Is this really a effective technique to teaching a person disipline?
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Postby Wreaking » Thu May 10, 2007 9:06 am

I think my dad and yours went to the same school of parentship Bil.

Parents need to be consistant. If you are consistant you would only have to pop a childs rear once or twice growing up. I think both of my kids had less than 3 spankings growing up. A spanking consisting of one swat on the rear when a warning or other timeout style punishment didn't work.

My kids now being 10 and 14 are very respectful and well behaved, more so around me than their mother (divorced parents for 5 years) because she does not respet nor demand respect out of them.

As far as military, the closest I came was some ROTC in college. I actually liked it. Were it not for "young love" and injuries from football my senior year, I had actually planned to go to West Point after high school for football. My dad a navy veteran of WWII, all my older brothers (4 of them) were in korea or vietnam, my youngest is still in the navy (15 years) .

That said I would be for schools offering it but not forcing it, or at least bring back PE. Now I would be for first time offenders of minor crimes having the option of military duty, at least basic training and then serve out their sentence. I'm all for not putting the petty offenders in overcrowding jails if there is a way for them to learn their lesson. The judge that does the humiliating stuff gets a big :thumbup .
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Postby Uilea » Thu May 10, 2007 9:33 am

Those universities that refuse to add the course to the curriculum should be shutdown. The response is a little extreme, but it will close most of the loopholes that are bound to happen. Opposition from the students and parents can be dealt with by making it illegal for the students to have a driver’s license, receive federal aid, or register for college.


I have many people in my family who have chosen to be part of the armed forces somehow. I've got cousins training to be seals and an uncle down in Sandia labs developing weapons being used now in Iraq. It's what they've chosen to do, just like everyone else in my family has chosen to work towards their own interests. I respect the choices they've made about their lives just like they respect mine. If I wanted to be forced into the military I sure as hell wouldn't be living in America. If you're proposing that we should screw everyone who doesn't want to participate in the forces I highly recommend you remember exactly where you're living.
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haha

Postby bill » Thu May 10, 2007 9:58 am

Godwin's invoked on the first page, I love it!
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Postby Meso » Thu May 10, 2007 10:08 am

It should be mandatory that anyone that thinks military should be mandatory must shoot himself with the nearest weapon available.

Starting at the top. GW this one's for you :bazooka:
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