global warming?

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Postby Bilnick » Thu May 03, 2007 6:40 pm

Who knows....maybe we are preventing the next ice age.

I read somewhere that over the last couple million years the earth has been in a cycle of roughly 90,000 years of ace age with 10,000 years of non ice age. (I am going from memory, so the 90,000 years may be wrong) It just so happens we are near the end of that 10,000 year ice age free cycle.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas, no doubt, but are the elevated levels we see now entirely due to people, or are there other factors involved?

Why is only CO2 focused on when other gasses are far more important in the big picture? The effect of all CO2 (which humans only contribute about 3%) is a small fraction of the total greenhouse effect. In essence the greenhouse alarmists are focusing on only a fraction of a fraction of the whole picture.

Kinda hard for Al Gore to regulate ocean evaporation isn't it?
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Postby Worff » Thu May 03, 2007 6:50 pm

Aye Jah no doubt... recklessly abusing resources because you think you'll be raptured out anyway is disgusting and irresponsible.

Thanks Uilea for the article post :) I read it, it was painful reading but read it all lol. Here is a quote from it to show some numbers of past CO2 levels. (no numbers on methane .. stop that farting !! hehe)

In the Antarctic record, atmospheric CO2 levels over the past 750,000 years had cycled between about 180 and 280 parts per million. The level in the late 20th century had now climbed above 370 and kept climbing. (The other main greenhouse gas, methane, was soaring even farther above any level seen in the long ice record.) Greenhouse warming and other human influences seemed strong enough to overwhelm any natural trend.


While we may not be the root cause, I think we are speeding it up and amplifying it tremendously, possibly making it worse in terms of severity and length. I dont know for sure.. I guess no one does.. I think it would be wiser to not take that unacceptable risk and just cut down a bit on our consumptions.
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Postby Worff » Thu May 03, 2007 6:52 pm

Bilnick wrote:Kinda hard for Al Gore to regulate ocean evaporation isn't it?


lol he should be banned form owning 4 homes, fleets of SUV's, and making movies or speaking in public :P Hehe heard his estate used 20 times the power average american uses /boggle.
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Postby Jahras » Thu May 03, 2007 6:59 pm

About water vapor, this article was written specifically to address that question bil

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=142
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Postby Worff » Thu May 03, 2007 7:02 pm

Yay another article .. crap I read too slow I'll have to read it after raid hehe.

Edit: Dunno how I missed Zyzz's post... yeah you are right about that, dude.
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Postby Goofydoofy » Thu May 03, 2007 9:13 pm

I can't wait for the oceans to rise and the country of Dubai gets washed away.
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Postby Wreaking » Fri May 04, 2007 10:15 am

Being a Christian and from most Christians I know we would not fit into that "sterotype". Yes I think that the rapture COULD happen in my lifetime but the disciples were also thinking they would see it happen. So who knows when it will happen.

If you have ever talked to a missionary or visited a 3rd world country and saw or heard about the water problems and how clean water is either precious or not possible. Well lets just say you will think twice about leaving the water on when you brush your teeth for example.

What I do know is that while common sense evidence of global warming is here, like easier to get a sun burn from being outside, we have also in GA had one of the coldest late winter/early springs in 100's of years.

I agree with alot of the first list, but the other side of the coin is giving up freedoms. Warning...making up general sterotypes here so don't flame me. You will have one person all up in arms that he/she can't smoke pot, that it should be legal and then on the other hand bashing Bil for driving a V8 and poluting the world. Everyone wants their view of the world imposed on everyone else. You can't impose on my freedoms but I can tell you what car to drive, what fuel to burn, etc.

People will always agree to disagree :).
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Postby Bilnick » Fri May 04, 2007 10:31 am

I like to debate/argue, I don't take offense (offence for the Canadian audience) to very much.

I am not convinced that the apparent climate "crisis" we are having is traceable to only human contributions.

Global warming is not a new phenomenon, after all we have had a global warming trend for the last 5,000 years or more.

Even if the predictions are true, there may be some positive benefits. Increased growing seasons...areas that may only be warm enough to plant one season of corn or wheat for example, now may be able to have two growing seasons. Areas that were too cold to grow anything might be able to produce food. If Detroit only had cold weather for a month instead of 3 or 4 months I wouldn't complain too much :) .
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Postby Worff » Fri May 04, 2007 10:38 am

lol Goofy.

Wreaking hehe .. all I'm suggesting here in this thread is to make SMALL changes to start with that would be good anyway :) For Bilnick, his change will not be his car engine lol but maybe something else that he is willing to do. One day you will notice, "Hey, I made these small changes and I'm still alive and free!!!!!". Maybe you'll do more at that point, maybe not.. it still helped.

It's not about giving up freedoms (the govt takes enough of that away from us all the time, slowly converting to a police state.. which we've seen promotes violence in other counties like that)... it's about doing our part, no matter how small, to help this and other situations that have gotten out of hand. I won't elaborate on those "other" here I'd just start a new thread hehe. How about our kids and their kids being Free to live on an unpoisoned planet because we didnt wanna give up a single thing.

Yeah I've only met a handful of christians in 30 years that were actually that irresponsible, most are not. (that I know anyway)
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Postby Worff » Fri May 04, 2007 10:48 am

Bilnick wrote:Even if the predictions are true, there may be some positive benefits. Increased growing seasons...areas that may only be warm enough to plant one season of corn or wheat for example, now may be able to have two growing seasons. Areas that were too cold to grow anything might be able to produce food. If Detroit only had cold weather for a month instead of 3 or 4 months I wouldn't complain too much :) .


Hmm well I can't say if that would happen or not, for sure, but I do know this: eco systems are very sensitive. Hotter climates would also mean changes in insect populations (a boom) and how often they are present... not to mention the timing in which they spawn that migrating birds depend on to feed during their trip (if they spawn too early because warm climate starts early). Warmer waters means more and stronger strorms, and longer storm seasons... as well as changes in shallow water aquatic eco systems. More radiation from the sun will get thru, etc etc.

Buy stock in Coppertone and RAID bug spray /snicker.
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Postby Bilnick » Fri May 04, 2007 11:02 am

The earth has gone through hot and cold cycles before. Species adapted, or they didn't, nothing new really.
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Postby Worff » Fri May 04, 2007 11:34 am

Bilnick wrote:The earth has gone through hot and cold cycles before. Species adapted, or they didn't, nothing new really.


Agreed yes, but this is a situation that "could" be far more extreme than the subtle natural cycles. Ok lets breaks this down:

1. Is the planet warming and predicted to continue to warm. Yes

2. Is it our fault or are we amplifying that effect? (not all agree, but more than not say Yes)

3. How will it affect mankind as a whole. (which will effect you eventually) I dont know. However, none of the theories sound good to me.

4. What can we do about it? (whether it's our fault or not is irrelevant.. Can we delay the inevitable? Can we reverse the effects?) I dont know. Trying something small is better than trying nothing tho, that is just silly.

5. What is the end result? I dont know. I can guess but it would be only speculation.
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Postby Bilnick » Fri May 04, 2007 11:44 am

7. Convert auto's and gas stations across the major consumtion countries to E85 ethanol. It's completely doable over reasonable amounts of time.
(might conflict with #9)


I agree this might be possible. General Motors produces many cars that will run on E85.

Right now, finding stations that sell E85 is a problem. In Michigan there were plans for a few hundred stations to have E85 right now. But then it was realized you cannot simply fill up the gasoline underground tanks with E85 and slap a sticker on the pump. UL wouldn't certify existing gasoline pumps for E85...the safety nuts they are.

Right now corn prices have gone up due to the demand of increased ethanol production. A new crop needs to be developed for ethanol production. We simply cannot produce enough corn to run the current number of vehicles with E85.

Some tradeoffs in fuel economy will likely be made converting to E85. Cars that run both Gasoline and E85 get fewer miles per gallon from E85. On the other hand, a few more horsepower is realized. Fuel economy similiar to gasoline will eventually happen when manufacturers design the engines around running only E85, instead of both.

I would guess that within 5 years E85 will be commonly available, especially in the midwest.
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Postby Bilnick » Fri May 04, 2007 11:51 am

1. Is the planet warming and predicted to continue to warm. Yes


Depends on the timeframe you are talking about. I think most scientists would also tell you that another ice age is inevitable. We are more equipped to deal with oceans a few feet higher, and summers a bit warmer, than we are with a mile thick sheet of ice sitting on Chicago.
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Postby Bilnick » Fri May 04, 2007 11:59 am

Third post in a row....sheesh i must be talking to myself.

I am just very skeptical on this whole global warming doom and gloom stuff. After all the same scientists could be off by 5-10 degrees on the weather TOMORROW are trying to tell me what it is going to be like 50, 100 years from now.
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