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/derail talking about warriors raid roles

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 1:09 pm
by Baromen
[DISCLAIMER]Drannor was talking about why we don't get too many of one class on someone's app discussion and I replied and he replied and here it is. Serano felt it would be better as it's own discussion.


true, Dran...

How to get rid of baromen!

1. Recruit a pile of warriors
2. Forget baromen is on raids and never have him tank anything ever
3. Never group with Baromen because we have so many better warriors
4. goto step 1

Bardomen might be more difficult to thrash, but if you think we should add people over the cap in closed classes, visualize something that you'd REALLY like to loot...

...
...
...

ok, now picture 10 other people in your class... at least 1 will raid more than you...

poof! no drop for you.... poof! no qvic flag for you... poof! your goodbye thread

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 1:23 pm
by Zyzzerzazz
This might not be the place for it, but why do warriors need to MT somthing to feel important?

I mean - its not like we have a main healer or main nuker do we?

We all need to work together in a fight, weather you are not MTing somthing shouldnt matter.

Hell as a warr - you better be ready to become the MT at a moments notice. So in theory, all warrs are MT, just sometimes the mob never beats thru enough HP to ge to you.

I do understand the loot thing - but have you noticed how many clerics we need / had on a raid? Sometimes like 8 or 9 - and I consider that GOOD, not bad. lol So what if I dont get the loot I wanted - which happend twice now - but I am still pluggin away at it, hopeing for my dat to grab that uber drop :P

well

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 1:43 pm
by bill
Not that this is the place for it, but that never stopped me before:

Warriors are a weird class. They can't CANT do anything other than mitigate incoming dps. Think about it.

If you've played a warrior on a raid and didn't have to tank anything, you literally could have slept through the raid.

Even then our job is pretty boring if we are good at the basics.

Add in the fact that a warrior is based on his gear more than any other class aside from maybe Rogues and it only makes things worse when the decent warrior weapons are uber rare. Enraging Blow anyone?

As a part-time warrior, I feel the pain of warriors. No one feels as unwanted as the #4-5 warrior.

That being said, our #1-2-3 warriors change monthly, I shit you not.

Look through the warriors in our last 5 raid reports. Look at the top 3 each month.

That having been said, a good warrior is better at finding opportinuties to help. But it isn't easy. Bilnick asked me why I like to pplay Dran so much at raids. It is so I have something to do that doesn't dominate my time.

I think the phenomenon is that the class sucks to play heh.

Think about this zyzz, we are fighting Quarm.

How many warriors are involved? 1
How many healers? all of em.
How many slowers? all of em.
How many dps? all of em.

The only time another warrior gets work is when 1 dies. Normally guilds will compensate this by switching tanks mid-fight.

However, we seem to just power through stuff that ppl told me were impossible without tank rotations. (/wave Criploc)

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:03 pm
by Zyzzerzazz
Ummm how amazingly FUN do you think perma healing is?

OMG Look at my 13k Crit heal! lol

JK

Dont warriors have a x4 melee damage disc? Dont they have other discs that help them brun bettter?

I think they do - that said - a Warrior is DPS help if no the MT.

And what happens when #1 Warr dies? #2 -3 - 4 - 5 Warr need to step up - get aggro - and tank the beast b4 more DPS slikies die.

Moral of the story - everyone is important. And you better beleive me when I say OH Shit when the MT #1 dies - and look VERY forward for Tank 2-3-4-5 to step up asap and get Main Aggro.

And just because you are not the MT as a warr - dosent mean you can slack off and NOT click your melee disc for xtra brun! It means you are at teh raid - so break a leg and brun!

hehe

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:13 pm
by bill
Well, lets just say warrior dps has never saved the day hehe. Clerics get a little more glory. I mean I know everyone is important, but I cite those as sources of usual warrior angst.

The dmg disc being on when you need defensive is B.A.D. I only use it when I am sure I won't be tanking and even then it only lasts for 30 seconds lol. The refresh timer on Fellstrike is horrendous as well, I usually can only use it at most every other encounter in PoTime. 25 minute refresh timer!!!

Just saying, switching the MT's is more valuable than simply dps being mitigated and aggro generated. When clerics heal, each is as important as the other. The same is not true for warriors. I mean of course some are stronger than the others, don't get me wrong. But their jobs, like the nukers is the same.

Do your job as best as you can. Only 1 warrior at a time can do their job to the best they can at any given time, which is why I love to have things offtanked hehe.

Plus clerics can stun and nuke, I have played a cleric past 40 hehe.

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:23 pm
by Baromen
MT dies... I've positioned myself second on the aggro list carefully adn now I have aggro... I get hit for around 5k to start and fire my fortitude disc. 8 or 9 clerics need to switch targets and get healing going... 50/50 chance I'm splattered...

now I've spent 5 minutes "dpsing" a god only to get splattered in 13 seconds and swim around PoTranq and never see the win.

now clerics are on their toes for tank 3 who is probably 70/30 to live... with 4 being 80/20

Now, I don't know what's going on in the healer channel, but during things like p3 where I am guaranteed to die 3+ times I see my name on HOTT, but I don't see heals landing. I feel bad for the poor cleric I get grouped with, because if it isn't mentioned in raid who are the tanks to keep an eye on, my cleric will be made to look silly. He starts a ch, now I have 2 mobs on me because I snatched one off a druid... dead.

Now we hit gods and I'm the speedbump because I'm doing my job properly. I have 2 discs for dps on the same timer. I have about 4 mitigation discs 2 on one timer, 2 on the other. I've max hit a crippling blow with disc for 1k and that's happened once.

I'm not dps. I can't buff. I can't pull. I can't heal. I can't slow... I can't do anything but take damage and stay alive longer than other classes.

By the second or third time we were doing time I was seriously hitting autoattack and checking email. It gets depressing and frustrating to be worthless. Worthless is taking a DPS slot from a class that can actually do dps instead of a plate wearing gimp berzerker because you aren't doing the only thing you're here to do.

As any other class you can do something to help. Pallies can buff and do nice dps on undead. Shd are decent dps for a tank. EVERYONE has a role but warrior #4.

How do you become warrior #1? Sit and gimp along as a speedbump with awful dps until you start picking up gear that warrior #1 passes on. Hope warrior #1 retires. It's sad but true. I'm trying to make every raid, do everything I can, do DoD's for augs and gear and DoNs when I can't get DoDs. I'm working on smithing because I don't know a GM barbarian smith. Eventually I'll be worth it. I was so flattered my face turned red and hot when I was asked to tank Quarm. I don't think I've been prouder. Warriors are the center of attention and they deserve it for all the suffering you have to do to get there.

haha

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:33 pm
by bill
The moral of that story:

Don't give up. You will be infinitely the stronger for it.

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:14 pm
by Serano
I like to rotate thru all warriors at a raid when I remember to. It keeps me from having to ask which Disc is up etc - worry about funny warrior disc timers that refreash faster than 80 minutes.

That said - Raid leaders fall in a rut - we ask the same guy to tank the same encounter a lot - as my Goal in EQ is to just get more TFers phat loot without having to think to hard. I am going to have to remember to bid on the Time Caps or the Time sleeves sometime soon - I keep forgeting to look at loot.
]
OH Baro - Since this was split from another thread - you might want to edit your first post to make it fit with it being a discusion of its own. Or not.

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 7:05 pm
by Xanaii
I'de like to add to this.

My first main class in this game, where I first started raiding far back in those golden days, was a warrior. Every single thing Drannor has said is true. Everything Baromen has said is true. Warrior class from lvl 1-70-raiding, is the suck at times, sometimes more often then not, and as Drannor said, they need the good gear to be recognized. High AA's doesn't hurt either.

My warrior having been made back then, as a Dark Elf warrior simply for the unique value of it, back then starting race and stats did matter lol, didn't have all this hp/stat gear we have today...It got so depressing that it depressed me IRL, literally. We didn't get incite, any other aggro+ disc, aggro procing weapons were holy crap rare, we got taunt lol, and as we all know that doesn't always work even now, worked even less then and warriors mitigated less then as well. That's when I said F the warrior and started the SK. I still wanted to tank, but wanted to do more and add more.

Playing a warrior is hard and depressing if you're not right in the game with the gear, with good connections to geat the gear, with good time on your heads to be able to lvl and get AA's all the time. Once you get in a raid there is always 2 or 3 or more warrior ahead of you and you're only job basically is now exempt and you get to laze around feeling worthless and neglected like no one respects you at all because you are entirely looked passed for your abilities, at least that's what it feels like. This however is not true. It is the life of a warrior and it's a f'd up hard life, no warrior will tell you it's been easy, whether they are the uber-shit now, or the lowest of the low. Most people who play the warrior class end up quiting it in general and either rerolling or quiting the game all together because of this. No joke, it's been proven.

Yet even this. warrior is the second most played class in the game, according to EQranking, which of course is not accurate because not everyone uses magelo and is set up on EQrankings, but it gives a pretty good average/average upon classes being played...Cleric of course being the highest because people want to feel needed and no one is more needed in EQ then a cleric, despite what complaints are about druid and so on =P.

I say this is a game and it comes down to, you either can live with the depression and feel like shit and slowly work through it until the other warriors slowly drop either down or go up and your place is finally at the head, or end it now and start again and try and be happy playing another class.

Don't get depressed over this game like I did. Sometimes I still do but I always catch myself and say, "This isn't worth it", and I will usualy go play another MMORPG or just get busy IRL until I feel I can get back into the loop of things with my friends in game again, cause I've never met anyone myself who's totaly quit EQ.

Sounds to me like you're feeling some serious withdrawl though Baromen and it saddens me cause I know how it feels and lots of others do as well, lots of others have felt your pain and still do to this day.

Look inside your minds mind and ask it to look into the future and honestly see what you think it holds for you, without any emotion. If you can do that.

Whatever you find, do what you know comes to you then. And that sounds so ridiculously ghey, but can at least try it lol. Worked for me.

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 8:23 pm
by Baromen
It's amazing how fast warriors get burnt out on all levels for the same shit. I went on playerauctions.com today just to see who would sell their toons. I saw a dude selling his 17k warrior with max AAs and access to every zone in the game.

To me, that's a dream. To him, it was a lot of the same. No matter how good you get, its' never good enough. You'll still be mediocre dps relative to teh people around you. You still can't pull, you still can't heal, etc... but you're so important it's crazy.

Every guy I know in a high end guild tells me the same shit: "We've lost our MT/a few of our top warriors to retirement and other guilds"

It's just so hard to be happy with what you do. I love tanking more than anything else, but it's such a hard place to find satisfaction.

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:15 am
by Zyzzerzazz
In God Looting guilds - nothing sucks worse, then to gear up your MT warr as best you can first, above the other tanks, to only have him leave the game/guild.

That sucks.

I guess I just cannot understand the Warriors deal. Want to play a cleric Baro - and I will tank?

Mix it up a little -

I made a cleric because Drannor told me to back when he was lv 15 - said clerics were cool because they could heal and summon their own food/water :p

I took the bait - and never looked back.

So a Warriors life is that shitty eh? I will tell you I tend to just go with one tank for a slong as I can for the whole raid - makes it easier to rember who the heal target is w/o changeing it every encounter. But I certainly can mix it up more. I had no idea playing a warrior was such a gloomy and sad class to play /shrug

Hey wait a damn min - you got a freaking DBotW for 10 freaking DKP you thief!

We have at least 2 more months outa you untill you can start the pitty party again:p

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:16 am
by Meso
Let me tell you a little story about Ironsack the brazen.
Meso, the small but fiesty necro went to DS last night to help Baro find an epic ground spawn.
Following him to my horror he goes tearing up the ramp to the top of the wall at the NC ZL.
I had been up there before and knew how dense the mobs were. I was sure warrior and necro were going to be coming back down in body bags.
But he plodded up the ramp with such certainty that I could only assume that he either knew it had been cleared or that he didn't have a clue what was up there.
:jester Mr. brazen ironsack discovered chain aggro. The Kyv regiment did not take kindly to our intrusion.
"assist and BRUN" came the call as they swarmed around him, too many to count.
With all the dots and nukes I took no aggro although my pet was dead by the time we dropped the fourth kyv. There still seemed as many or more as when we began and still the steel flailed thru them.
Not till his health was nearly gone did he train the kyvs away. Hmmm, time to FD.
It was a glorious battle to behold! Crazy nut!

There is far more to being a warrior than being the MT in a raid.

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:32 am
by Zyzzerzazz
AMEN!

Altho - a Warr is prob the games worst soloer - a Warr and almost any healing class will own shit - esp a shammy )

heh

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:27 am
by bill
I get groups more often as Way than Dran.

I can solo like a champ with Dran tho!

Choices choices!

Re: heh

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:38 am
by Eubedyen
bill wrote:I get groups more often as Way than Dran.

I can solo like a champ with Dran tho!

Choices choices!


True because still to this day everyone needs a tank more then a mage.I bet if Waystin and i put LFG up at the same time...Waystin will get an invite before the mage will...

Baro,Dont give up man.I see and understand your frustration.yes i know playing a Mage is FAR different then playing a MT.I have watched you grow and become a hell of a tank.I guess what i am saying again is dont give up...Keep fighting..