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submitted for your approval

PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 11:52 am
by bill
i know this is way after the fact but I just happened upon this thread.

Intersting to note the Dev's stance on Canni. I guess this whole topic got fired up by some ppl on test noticing that they were losing mana while trying to canni over the weekend.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:56 am
by Fnord Shoggothslayer
And look what got posted today:

Change to Magicians ability prompts refund of AA points.
Hello Norrath,

In the next update, tentatively scheduled for December 18th, any Magicians who have used AA points to purchase Improved Reclaim Energy will have that ability removed and the AA points reimbursed. This comes as result of changes to the amount of mana returned, which previously allowed Magicians to regain more mana than they used in casting a pet.

Please be aware that if you have this AA you will be receiving a refund of those points and that you cannot save more than 30 points. So if your refund brings you over 30, you will need to spend them before you zone after the update.

I don't have to be the weird one anymore! :)

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:16 pm
by Zyzzerzazz
Ouch, tough hit Magi


PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:35 pm
by bill
yeah that is a tough hit. I always put that up there as one of the things that made us a bearable pet class when necro's and beastlords can already solo circles around me.

Without this, magi now officially are the slowest mana regen casters.

With the worst pet heals and no way to slow/snare/root dependably, I can't help but feel slighted. The manaburn change was rough, but that was a fix for something that came out with Luclin.

The canni deal was something that has been around since Kunark and before. So, as soon as they get around to fixin FD, I'll go back to playing my mage.

If I find out that this is just in time to push ppl into buying the new expansion so i can have a comparable caster class again, i will probably hang it up heh. On that note, since the melee changes didn't go live when they should have, if they are going to force me to buy the new expansion for the melee fixes, again, I will be hangin it up.

I know ppl claim that all the time but this is the kinda thing that tells me its ok to go out and spend tens of thousands of plat and earning/spending over 20aa *specifically* for an ability that has existed and been known about since Kunark and then to gank all that with no warning/explanation/compensation...that is the biggest slap in the face SOE could give me aside from banning my account outright.

One last note as of last night:

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:55 pm Post subject:


Howdy All,

I am looking into this and if there is a change scheduled to come to the live servers, I will let you know beforehand.

With that in mind, I would remind you that not all things changed on test make it to the live servers. Let's take some time for me to gather the facts and I will get back to you.

Thanks all.


Oh, and Fnord, I was "weird" too until I bought Elemental Pact for 5aa. That was when i finally began to canni. I think I was lvl 61-62 when i bought that.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:41 pm
by bill
Hey, Fnord and Ophidion, this math is for you guys, enjoy.

Oh, and grats oph, you official own me now haha.

every here is all up in arms about saying mages get 200 mana a tick using pet canni. well folks heres what your forgetting. were not doing anything else during those 2 minutes. so while were not nuking and have no pet we regen 200 mana per tick. what about the 8 minutes that we spent nuking to go oom that required the pet canni in the 1st place.

2 min of 200 mana per tick + 8 min of 0 mana per tick = 10 min 50 mana per tick.

news flash necro's regen mana at the same rate.
seduction of saryrn 50 mana for 63 hp per tick.

lets look at an infiite senario
casting sun vortex with 33% mana pres, improved damage and spell haste. all hits full no resists.
damage per cast 2061
mana per cast 260.
time per cast 6.5 seconds per cast.

pet canni time per cast 7.3 seconds
mana regened per cast 180.

mana per cycle -80
time per cycle 13.8
dps per cycle 149.

being able to sustain 149 dps isnt exactly what i would call uber. thats assuming 0 resists. and all hits full.

using firebolt of tallon for the same test.

damage per cast 3030.
mana per cast. 330
time per cast 6.9

pet canni time per cast 7.3 seconds
mana regened per cast 180.

mana per cycle -150
timer per cycle 14.2
damage per cycle 213. hey at least its a resonbable number. assuming of course that none of the bolts are eaten by a wall or resisted or eaten by a tank and they all land for full. and you perform the cycle flawlessly
not to mention are sitting on a horse with voq bardsong and beastcrack at all times

take pet canni out of the equation.
mana regen = 79 per tick horse + bard+ voq + ft15
pet = 60 dps
time to regen fbot = 25 sec
fbot dps 121
mage dps = 181 infinite assumin no resists .....

shaman's casting breath of ultor, blood of saryrn and bane = 841 per tick unfocus'd

using the same numbers ive given for mage focus

1118 per tick = 186 dps + 30 dps for pet
= 130 mana per tick outlay
= 51 mana per tick los.
i dont think theres anyone out there that doesnt think cann 4 and 5 + torpor/q cannot regen 51 mana a tick.

congrats mages we just got passed by shaman in sustained dps

respectable damage dealers my ass ... &start=125

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:48 pm
by Ophidion
shaman can do a shit load more dmg than that.... with 2 dots (assuming i finally get my LDoN dot thats 740 damage per tick right there
if i use my 4 strongest dots in one fight thats
320+420+214+146 = 1100damage per tick
1100/6 ~ 183dps
and lets not forget my pet....

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:48 pm
by Azzenkar Emberune
Is it any wonder us life time mages are all a little bitter and pissed off? We have gotten screwed more times than I care to go into. No wonder I'm enjoying starcraft so much.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:07 pm
by Fnord Shoggothslayer
Ahh, but the big caveat with Shaman damage, or any DoT damage for that matter, is that the mob is dead LONG before the DoT does anywhere near full damage - yet they spend the same mana whether it is active for 1 second or 10 seconds.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:24 pm
by Ophidion
i have nukes too

What does "DPS" mean?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:14 am
by bill
DPS means damage per second.

whether its nukes, kicks to the nuts or a hundred hurled squirrels, its the rating of how much damage per second you are dealing.

Being a dot that doesn't finish its term doesn't chage its DPS any, as the rating is based from the dmg/tick which can simply be divided by 6.

How is this different than the monk nerf? We took a nerf when you guys did, but you prolly forgot it. It was the mod rod nerf. That was huge.

This is even bigger. The one thing that kept me from rerolling another toon once they nerfed rods was that I was literally one lvl below those hit the hardest. So in essence, I never knew it was better.

With canni tho, I know the difference. I stand fast in the face of the fact necro's and beast's can solo circles around me because my downtime is lessened.

Also, the biggest debate here isn't the amount of mana I can acumulate, but what it takes for me to do it.

*I can't have any pet

*I can't be sitting, moving or engaged in any combat whatsoever. 0DPS.

*If I get attacked, I am without a pet/root/snare/slow or any other defense mechanism at all save gate.

I don't know of any class that has to meet these conditions to get their mana back. If they did have to actively accumulate mana instead of using something like Gather Mana or simply lich the mana, then I would have no arguement.

It would seem by the arguments from the dev team that they are completely ignoring this point. Its sad that the mage community is getting ignored.

If any of you non-magi have been following this, yesterday Rytan EQ mentioned that magi lvl 58+ will be gettting an extra FT2 added to our self-buffs which are overwritten by the druid potg/9er line. G THX! Hope you magi lvl 49-57 have plenty of twink gear because you get nothing to compensate for the nerf at all.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:09 pm
by Wulfzor
The only words of consolation I can add is this Drann..There are very few mobs out there that I can get all of my dots to stick on, My nukes are gay, and to be effective with canni I need to be on a horse so I can cast. Your pet will eat a shammys pet alive also. Is this a fir thing to do to mages..Hell no :finger Sony


PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:01 am
by bill


PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:50 am
by bill
Hey Nist, promised you this info last night:

Mage Tower Thread on Elemental Siphon

seriously...this is quite relevant to our current anti-pet pushing talks. What this "appears" to be to me is that its a recourse mana over time type buff you cast on your pet.

In necro terms, it appears we "lich" our pet. Taking xxxx hp from our pet and turning it into a recourse buff of 5mana/tick.

Downside is its another wasted buff slot but it won't be breaking me.

For an example of why the Diamond Prism of Companionship is going to be so important in the future and now for magi is this single stat:

Focused epic pet regen = 277hp/tick.

Throwing us this 5mana/tick will put us back over wizards as we stand right now. Tho I am almost positive I read that "flappy" is getting an upgrade as well so I can't say whether or not Magi will still be bottom of the barrel on mana regen. 5/tick more that actually stacks is "something".

Overall I like the new idea. Not because of the 5/tick. Because its creative. Not original, but creative.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:35 pm
by Nistari
I agree Dran. Not entirely original, but certainly creative.

And you are right. This does change our discussion on pets. In that, I could have my pet with me at all times next to me feeding me mana while I nuke the shit out of things. And all he does is sit at my side. He doesn't even have to engage.

But that does seem kinda lame to do that.

I like the idea tho. 5 mana per tick for 6 min. I don't mind giving up a buff slot. Hell, I just need a few buffs really. As for giving up a spell slot, bah..I don't use all 8 slots anyway. This works for me. I like it.

Thanks Dran

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 3:18 pm
by Fnord Shoggothslayer
I'm surprised you're worried about the buff slot. Do you usually have 15 buffs on you so this one won't fit? I know that even during raids I always had room for 3-5 more buffs. And what is a Diamond Prism of Companionship?