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Pally Style Tankin' 101

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:32 pm
by Champion Flogger
With the number of Paladins we now have, I thought that I should try to bring some old tips back to our attention.

At lower levels, a Paladin may be asked to tank occasionally. This is especially true in LDoN dungeons where a combo of Pacify and Stun can make a pally a dual threat. (Pulling and MT'ing means no transfer of aggro.) As a pally gets higher in level, he may be called upon more for tanking roles. Here are a few things that will help...

The number one job of any main tank is to be the only one getting hit (and therefore the only concern of the healer.) Since pallys don't have combat abilities that address this, we must rely on the tools our diety gave us.
If you haven't figured this one out, then listen good. If you need to have aggro, stuns are a huge aggro builder. Having more than one memmed is advisable. Mobs that resist stuns will still hate you more when you try. So, many paladins will use their level 15 stun for this. It's very low mana cost, almost always gets resisted, but it will move you up the hate list as fast as your high level stuns. The only time you cannot use stuns for aggro is when you get a "target looks unaffected" message. This is rare.
If you want aggro, mash this button every time it pops. On some mobs, you will have to do add stuns to your taunting. Also, taunt may fail 50% of the times you hit it. However, it's always a good idea to add taunt to your aggro-inducing tactics.
Anything that you can do to increase your DPS is going to help. Damage procs on a weapon or via a spell will increase damage and help keep the mob's attention. One of the best procs comes from our EPIC, which is a pain to get, and many pally's say is not worth it. However, the Holy Shock proc that it has does 155points of dmg and has a stun component, both of which are a major hate generator. Add a proc augment like I did and your self-buff proc, and you have almost the same DPS as a windblade.
This is your last resort. When you root a mob, and get real close, it will focus on you. You must remember that root aggro is not the same as hate. If you step back, you're buddy will get hit because he's closer. This is why you use this only in specific cases.

When you are going to be a tank, you are going to need your focus on defense. Pally's aren't great DPS to begin with, so if you have to sacrifice a little DPS for a lot of defensive benifits... DO IT.
******* AC
Until you reach the tier2+ planes or GoD, AC is going to be essential. Paladins have some natural mitigation, but alot of damage is avoided with decent AC. Sometimes, it might be useful to use a 1-hander and shield for this reason.
******* HPS
This is the most important part of tanking. As a pally progresses, he/she should always seek new gear or buffs that will give HPS. This also means watching your stamina stat. (Items with stamina AND hps are preferred.) Level+STA+HP Gear+Buffs equals the damage you can take. It also means you need healed less often, which keeps your healers from running out of mana.
******* SKILLS
Always keep your Dodge, Parry, Riposte, and defense skills maxed. High hps are good and all, but if you are always hit for max damage you still won't last long. Agility helps these skills.
******* AA's
Things to go for as a tanking pally are.. STA, AGI, Natural Duribility, Combat Agility, Combat Stability, and Physical Enhancement. These will help you get hit less, take less dmg when you do, and go longer without needing a heal.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:52 pm
by Aiela StormReaver
The overall agreement on Paladins of Norrath for AAs are to get your tankage ones *first*, without question.


Not getting hit at *all* > having hit points and losing them to a hit.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:03 pm
by bill
I have a question.

wouldn't ND > CA or CS?

an aoe dropping you because you have no HP doesn't do much for your tanking does it?

I guess it depends whether you raid more or group more.

Total avoidance > taking damage

PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:20 am
by Aiela StormReaver
CA > CS > ND, by far.

Most damage that is taken is via melee, as a paladin. As such, we use stuns to mitigate damage (a stunned mob = no damage taken). CA gives the same result, no damage taken.

CS means we're taking damage, but taking *less* damage. Ie, we don't get hit for max -- and with some of these mobs, that's a BIG difference.

With regards to nukes, etc -- we actually get a disc that makes us immune to those types of things, so long as it's actually a spell, and not a proc. Ie, we can ignore a wizard AOE nuke, but not a DT.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:27 am
by bill
so that still didn't address aoe's but ok ;)

PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:42 am
by Zyzzerzazz
lol ND is for show and CA / LR is for effectiveness...

the whole hp vs ac debate..

I got with both, balance hp and ac for best results....if you MUST choose i go with the AC, because healing becomes more effiecent...i would rather a tank sustain damage then have his / her hp go up and down like a see-saw scrambling to heal

PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:47 am
by Champion Flogger
OK, I see where Bill is at. MOST AoE spells are resisted by a pally if he has the right buffs, a bard, and his resistant/sanctification disc. However, Bill (I believe) is thinking of some of the UNRESISTABLE AoE's.

In that case, yeah, hps are better for that. However, Bill, nearly every time you go after a mob with an unresistable AE the RL is not going to put a Knight in as MT. A knight isn't going to effectively tank those until he has ND3, CA3, CS3, PE, and possibly LR1+. Even then, the more AA's the knight has, the better chance he has against such a raid target.

Now, that said, this post was meant as a general guide to tanking. It pertains to groups and minor raid targets mostly. Since, most RL's won't have a knight tanking major targets, this guide was titled 101. If I post a 102+ level class, then raid tanking will be the focus there.

Re: Total avoidance > taking damage

PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:07 am
by Bilnick
Aiela StormReaver wrote:With regards to nukes, etc -- we actually get a disc that makes us immune to those types of things, so long as it's actually a spell, and not a proc. Ie, we can ignore a wizard AOE nuke, but not a DT.

That sort of addressed it Bill, but Paladin disciplines pretty much suck. I have popped fearless discipline and have been feared, there is a discipline that makes us immune to all spells, but only lasts a few seconds (don't remember precisely, but only 10 seconds or so), one other discipline raises our resists for a couple of minutes, and our last crappy discipline increases the chance for a critical hit.

I agree with you though Bill, an increased hp pool will help vs AoE, where the other 2 will not. As far as comparing them 1 to 1 , with ND3 the character has 10% more hp, with CS3 the character takes 10% less damage. (I am trying to go by memory so the %'s may be off). The character with ND3 gets hit harder, but (s)he has extra hp to make up for it.

As I see it, if we have 2 identically geared paladins both with 5000hp. Paladin A gets ND3 and now has 5500hp. Paladin B gets CS3 and takes 10% less damage. The AoW hits Pally A for a 5k round, he has 500 hp left. The AoW hits Pally B for a 5k round but he mitigates 10% and only takes 4500hp damage, and so he too has 500hp left. For melee combat they are really equal. If CA3 means that you avoid 10% more hits the math would be the same. If a mob nukes for 5k only the Pally with ND3 is alive.

Healing will be more efficient with CA and CS though, because the dps on the Pally is lower.

I think they are all important. Once I hit level 70 (approx June of 2005 :cry ) I will be finishing these AA.

(Had to edit my post, boss walked in before I could finish it and I hit submit so I wouldn't lose what I typed. Yes, I should type it on Word or Notepad and cut/paste)

PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:34 am
by Ophidion
A 5K buffed paladin shouldn't be tanking AoW =P

PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:39 am
by Bilnick
Ophidion wrote:A 5K buffed paladin shouldn't be tanking AoW =P

Unless its a Froglok Paladin, all Frogloks should be thrown under a moving bus.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:44 am
by bill
Yes, moving bus indeed!

Yes Bil that was where I was going. Nukes are resistable where AOE's generally are not TOTALLY resistable if not unresistable outright.

And we only have 2 warriors that raid usually. Neither of us are constant either. Which means knights will be tanking and have been tanking plenty of raid mobs.

This thread was intended for single group encounters, my bad.

I was just representing how I see ND3 as being more useful to us as a tank-class raider.

Bil broke it down where they are all pretty much equal, but ND covers more "types" of incoming damage.

Between NToV and'll find yourselves dying from AOE much more than melee dmg /wink.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:56 am
by Fingor
You may or may not already have it set up this way Pral, But in regards to pressing the taunt button, On my sk, I have the macro buttons set up for taunt, disarm, slam, etc, all mapped to my left and right arrow keys. Doing this allows you to hit left or right, as you adjust position on the mob, and will work all these skills at once. And by doing this it also allows you to keep your skills maxxed at all times on these abilities.

Sorry but I had to do this...

PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:17 pm
by Rasputine
A 5K buffed paladin shouldn't be tanking AoW =P

Unless its a Froglok Paladin, all Frogloks should be thrown under a moving bus.

Hey Rinkkel, I guess that means you. :alright:


PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:02 pm
by eeventinee
ND>ALL that is all

hot shit

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:49 am
by bill
Eev agrees with me? I can die happy now ;)