Should TF Cap DKP Bids by Alts?

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Moderator: Officers

Do bidding caps apply to alts?

Poll ended at Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:46 pm

No, alts are not capped on bidding
13
33%
Yes, alts are capped like boxes without exception
5
13%
Yes, alts are capped unless the RL requests the presence of one toon over another.
22
55%
 
Total votes : 40

Should TF Cap DKP Bids by Alts?

Postby bill » Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:46 pm

Spurred on by the idea that if a box has a cap, what if the person only brings the toon that would normally be capped?

If we apply the cap to ALL alts/boxes, this will somewhat push people into focusing more on a single toon. This may or may not be a good thing but ultimately I feel it will help us be more efficient in gearing up our guild to move forward with.

However, there is still a loose end. Do we create an ammendment that states a requested toon is not affected by the cap?

The voting in the officer forum is done but I won't state which option won just yet.

The question is, do we want to cap alts in order to further the concept of raiding "mains" who are conceptually our driving force moving through progression? Do alts contribute enough to the guild to warrant uncapped bidding?

The proposed cap would be 50dkp, the same limitation on the bidding of boxes.

Get those thoughts out there folks, we wanna hear em! This will possibly pull some heartstrings so please don't devolve into a drama-filled thread.

If something someone says makes your bile rise up, take a moment or four and post a well-thought out reply expressing exactly what you mean to say.
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Postby Drigarx » Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:50 pm

I voted for capped alts unless the raidleader asks for that toon to be played just for the fact there was no option for alts shouldn't be allowed to bid if any other main is bidding.
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right on

Postby bill » Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:53 pm

If enough ppl like that option Drig we can always rerun the voting with new options. This is my first hint at where ppl stand on this concept.
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Postby wileyc143 » Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:54 pm

i feel the same as Drig on this subject. He hit it right on the head.
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Postby Meso » Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:44 pm

Any alt that has enough DKP to bid has obviously been a substantial participant and hopefully of benefit to the guild.
If someone has the time to develop several toons and plays them well, then the guild should benefit by his (her) presence and participation in the raid on whichever toon is played.
It's not like each person has a common DKP pool and can bid from it on any toon. Each toon has its own DKP which is a direct representation of how much that toon is raided.
So if the toon is not participating and not being useful, then the toon won't have enough DKP to bid with anyhow.

take a moment or four and post a well-thought out reply expressing exactly what you mean to say.


My not so well thought out response:
*EXPLETIVE DELETED* joking in bad taste. One of the attractive points of this guild is that alts are welcome here (or have been)
I've seen guilds crumble because of crappy alt policies.

/rant off
Last edited by Meso on Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Drigarx » Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:17 pm

Oerin wrote:I've seen guilds crumble because of crappy alt policies.


Any examples of any high end guilds crumbling or are you just blowing smoke? If you want I can dig up numerous policies of high end guild alt policies, but that is not the issue here. TF has to come to a reasonable compromise here and that is what this is about.
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Postby Meso » Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:47 pm

Any examples of any high end guilds crumbling


I certainly wasn't talking about any high end guilds.
I thought we were talking about Tribal Fury.

If thats where we are heading . . . well thats not where i want to go.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against high end content, just the stereotype of the high end guilds that suck the fun out of it along the way.

The journey far outweighs the destination.
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Postby Ceruis » Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:12 pm

One solution to the problem would be for the officers to pick a percentage of raids needed to be attended during the month for alts to be able to bid on loot. An example would if I raided 65% of the time with Ceruis and the remaining 35% with Tarvas, Tar would have equal loot rights. But if in the next month Tarvas fell below the 35% mark he would lose rights to bid. There is already a raid report generated every month, plus the tracking done by the DKP site so it shouldn't be to hard to implement. This will keep people who split time between different characters semi happy while cutting down on the number of "raid forces" being equiped. It will also make sure that some of the items bought by alts are going to be used to help benefit the "main" raid force with some consistency.
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Postby Baromen » Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:42 pm

I don't like to think I'd be outbid by someone's alt on something that would help my main be a more affective tank and thus a better member of this guild while someone else is just building up an alt that they really don't play a lot, but that being said, if someone is raiding with an alt more than I'm raiding with my main then he's doing more to help the guild than I am and should have the right to get what will help him out.

I think the DKP policy is a pretty efficient machine. If you spend a lot of time helping out then you get a better shot at the nice stuff that drops. Be that a main or alt or whoever.

I would like to see us all get uber and plow raids we previously couldn't touch, but like people have said, I'd also like to know that if one day I decide to bring Bardomen or Bloxx on raids and they start contributing to our progress more than Baromen that they'd have the same access to upgrades as people's mains without having to declare one or the other my "main." Regardless of how much I play any alt my heart will always be with Baromen and I'd never call him an alt (aka if I plaed Bardomen for a year I'd still consider Baromen my main regarless of which was further along, etc)

Basically, what I'm trying to say is if someone earns the points then he deserves the loot. The DKP system would work itself out the same. If it was Bardomen vs Padyene for some uber bard drop and Bardomen only had 20dkp then I guarantee Padyene would win it regadless of who was a main and who was an alt. The situation that a cap would protect against would be if Padyene never raided and Bardomen was an alt at 50% of the raids and built up more dkp. Then, if Bardo and Pady were in a bidding war for some insane bard only drop then all pady would have to do is bid 1 more than the cap and know he was going to win. In some ways I see that as fair because he is a bard and plays only a bard, but if I was putting in 5 hours a night for a month and really wanted it for Bardomen I can see that side as well.

Seeing as DKP is soulbound and not accountbound I think that natural selection will do enough to keep people from stealing major upgrades. The only problem I can see would be if Main and Alternate were the only two people interested in a drop. Main would bid 1 and win if Alternate wasn't there, but Alternate would really upgrade, so he keeps bidding up a drop that would otherwize be a 1 or 0 DKP drop for a main. Sure, it's nice to know as a main that you have priority, but from listening to vent and watching the bids on some of our loot it really feels like there is a strong sense of what's right built into most people here. I doubt that someone would intentionally hamstring a main to build up an alt they aren't serious about. To make it rule might turn a lot of people off, but I didn't really come here to voice much of an opinion either way. I just want to play devils advocate.

If I did have to lean in a direction it would be just to think about who you are bidding against. I'd never try to outbid Pady with Bardo because Bardo is a sometimes played alt of mine and Pady is one of our Bard OGs. I don't know if I'm the only one (I really don't think I am) but that's the only thing I'd reccomend. Keep the strength of the guild in mind when bidding. If it's a 10hp upgrade for you and a 50AC 80HP upgrade for someone else, maybe you should consider giving it up. I'm not saying in stone, I'm just saying to be cool about this shit. :banana
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Postby Ranjaling » Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:33 am

Oerin, bro, your response is that of like we are suggesting that all alts are told to fuck off.

Having a "50 bid dkp cap" on alts is hardly anything to suggest this.

Fuck that noise! Who the hell comes up with this bullshit?


RE: Nice! Way to compliment your officers for thinking of the guild and asking its members to vote and for its input which will ultimately decide things.

Actually Drannor explained how this came about. Because the topic of "Boxes" being capped we saw that there could potentially be a loophole in this IF we didn't discuss the situation with alts as well.

Here was the loophole if you want to know and I'll quote some of my responses in here because frankly I've spent enough energy in threads among officers to debate this issue all over again.

Ranjaling wrote:Loophole = Stop boxing, declair all once boxed toons as now Alts, bid freely with alts, then start boxing again when you have what you want, $$


Believe it or not, we all put alot of thought and ideas into this and are trying to come up with a solution that best helps the entire guild. This approach that "we are turning into a typical high end guild" and "shitting on peoples alts" is BS and I'm offended of that kind of accusation.

These potential policy changes wouldn't just be effecting your alts. Look at Waystin, fuk he has more earned DKP lifetime than Drannor. Adlewiese has put in tons of time with all his alts/boxes. Thats why this topic was brought out here into members to discuss. You don't see us just changing policies out of our ass. We didn't see Waystin or Adle cussing or throwing tantrums in officer discussions knowing that taking this to members to vote on would be directly affecting their respective alts.

Some points I brought up why all non-mains should be capped if we were going to make it policy for boxed toons.

Ranjaling wrote:How is a person with 1 EP armor on 6 toons more beneficial to the guild than 1 toon with 6 pieces of EP armor? To me, people with more than one raiding alt are just diluting the effectiveness of gearing up our main raiding force.


Ranjaling wrote:Where it does hurt the raid force is on hits like Verok where anyone can show up with their retired "old main" or PoS 4th/5th string alt that has 2 years of saved dkp they are looking to spend for no other reason than to spend it, only to let a would be major upgrade to a constant raider collect dust on a seldom played alt.


I will be open with my stance on both topics. I voted that if boxes were to be capped then Alts should be also because to me Boxes=Alts. So my feelings on the matter is that we either cap them both or cap neither one.

As far as the raid% Ceruis. Many of our mains fluxuate drastically from month to month that if we based bidding on percentage alone it would be injust to the people who cannot play the 35% for X month. Totally telling people that their alts cannot bid PERIOD is not going to happen in TF, regardless if the alt falls under a certain %.

We are simply trying to find a happy medium here for all boxed, alt, and main toons but if we raid-in so-and-so's 4th string 67 warrior only for him to take away a EP BP from Forco with his 80dkp he earned on his PoSky & Ssra insignia farming nights a year ago then how will this benefit anyone?

I'm sorry but if we are gonna have to farm EP's to gear up 3-4 toons for everybody's alts in the guild then we might as well keep killing PoF mini's forever.
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Postby Meso » Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:32 am

I did indicate that the second part was my "not so thought out response"
I really do have a lot of respect for the officers and mean no disrespect.
I just don't agree.

If an alt has the DKP then the alt is putting in the time.
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Postby Ayragon » Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:08 am

I agree with the Big O.....and really an alt is any toon other than your main, irreguardless if you have the ability to box it or not. Box toons=alts.

So restrict alts, I vote no...., why? How often is the raid leader going to ask you specifically to invite your alt....hmm almost never. Whats more likely gonna happen is that peeps will bring whomever they want, and bid on whatever they want, who's going to track it? This sounds like a managerial nightmare; and for 1, I could care less who votes on what, mains or alt boxes.

I don't think it takes the raid leader to tell Bill, hey dude, bring Waystin, we have 0 tanks, its really not rocket surgery.

When did we change the name of the guild to Gestapo Fury?
/goosestep off
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Postby Serano » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:03 am

well we do track. it is noted in the guild tool. We tag an app on successful application and as they tag other toons we note it in GMOTD. The other thread in this forum was to clairify a couple of toons specifically for our new box policy.

The shift here is whether there is full freedom to play with whichever toon you want. With the cap that freedom is still there. The limitation on that freedom is that the alts will have a bidding cap if this goes live.

there are only a handful of players where this has a serious impact. There are some fans of allowing no DKP to alts or boxes and others that think it should be unrestricted. Often that bias is based on whether or not you play multi toons.

There are some players that have multiple raiding toons that have earned the drops they have bought by their attendance. The concern of the officers is that by gearing up 2 - 3 raiding toons slowly - are the alts taking away from mains thus slowing up the raid gearing up for progression. The answer is yes. However - does that matter?

The reason we went to DKP is so that you can get what you play for without bias against individual, toon, or raiding frequency. However there are always targets ahead that remain ellusive until the guild as a whole is ready to fight - and the as a whole takes longer when some players swap mains, gear alts - etc. Does that really matter? to some yes - other guilds have nothing but fastest progression in mind whereas TF - isn't fixated on the fastest route - it would be nice to put content behind us quicker than they release it.

When PoP came out TF was Raiding Velious. TF started seriously raiding PoP when LDON came out and has been on pop ever since. Granted we have raided most of the new content as it is released - but as a focus we have been on pop for a very long time. Once we move into GoD / Omens instanced content we will be limited to 54 raiders on some hits. bear that in mind with some of your discussions.

OH - and we are not stripping alt DKP, we are discussing capping it at 50 DKP> If a main can't beat 50 DKP clearly the alt has earned that drop.
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Postby phishn00 » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:57 am

http://www.tribalfury.org/eqdkp/listite ... &p=history

What people are missing is that alts are allowed to bid up to 50 dkp. Take a look at the history, and check out how often items go that high. Only the high end drops do. I think most people here can see the advantage of having full time mains receive the high end drops. Unfortunately, there are a few who would rather gear up their alts / boxes than actually help the guild progress, which is why we need this rule.

Say I log on my warrior Amadus for some more raids, and get him time flagged. His gear is so weak atm that he couldn't tank an ldon. Yet if I have 120 dkp, then I could possibly take away the PoTime bp or dbotw from another warrior or plate class who would really benefit from the upgrade.

To me, this really says a lot about the character of someone. Deciding which is more important, your guildies receiving major upgrades or your alt.

Heh take a look at Listen.

Listen Alt 70 Enchanter 164.00 0.00 0.00 164.00


0 dkp spent on her, despite the fact that Britley plays her nearly all the time she's on. But Brit would still rather see guildies get the upgrade than her box / alt, even though she clearly deserves it. If there were more people like her playing eq, Norrath would be a much better place.
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Postby Ajaman » Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:03 pm

I voted no restriction on alts...with the restructuring of how we award raid points now (1 point per hour only) the <Listen> example, that would be 164 hours of raiding...HOLY SHIT! you earned the loot hun!

/shrug...whatever happens I will still be happy with TF :)
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