Vote for Epic Help Proposal

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Should a quest raid cost DKP for the Quester?

Poll ended at Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:30 pm

Needs Tuning
Total votes : 36

Postby cywair » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:56 pm

I so vote no :finger :bewbs hehe boobs
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Postby Meso » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:57 pm

triple DKP for epic raid attendees :thumbup
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Postby Krysstian » Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:19 pm

Needs tuning. I would like to establish an order of merit and this would help out. Overall raid attendance comes to mind. That's a direct representation of how much a person helps the guild out. If you were to skip every Saturday's epic hits and made every other raid, your attendance would still be well below 75%.

I also like the idea of a time limit in TF before asking for help. I'll use Que as an example since he's gone and was the most obnoxious about it; Que joined the guild and within three days time started pestering everyone to do his epic for him. I kept putting him off because there were other people that were waiting to get their hits done. We finally tried a fight for him and lost. If we had won, would Que still be in TF? What if we got him his epic? Would he still have just split? Requiring a set amount of time, like a couple of months or so, would give that person to establish themselves in the guild and establish some street cred with us.

I don't mind the dkp cost, but if we're going to charge dkp for hits they would need to take more precedence. If I'm going to spend 20 dkp for a fight I don't want it scheduled on a Friday when we hardly have any people, I want it scheduled on a weeknight, a night when we're sure to have a lot of people. Another aspect of charging dkp is that it's a fair way to schedule people. I have to admit that I've been a little less than fair when it comes to scheduling the officer's epic hits, mine included. I don't ever want people to think I've been anything but fair in scheduling these things for people. With the dkp charge being introduced, who gets a hit and who doesn't isn't decided by me anymore. Pay the price and get it done. An important thing to note here is that I am two fights away from my epic. I'd pay 40 dkp for it.

One part I disagree with is the lock-out. If no one shows up to help out on a night when epics are scheduled, that's not the quester's fault. Locking them out of the lineup the next time epics are scheduled seems a bit unfair, especially considering that they just paid 20 dkp to get the hit scheduled. Helping out people doesn't always guarantee getting help yourself, as much as we'd like to believe that. I think its safe to say that no one has worked harder than I have helping people with their epics, yet I was left standing in tactics with no raid to help me. Drannor was standing there with me. Would it be fair to lock me out of an epic hit the next week? I think that person should remain in the rotation until we deliver the services that person purchased.

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Postby bill » Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:29 pm

From the bottom up.

i think 20 dkp is an awful lot for some peeps (these peeps being the peeps that are ALWAYS there to help out)

If they are always there, 20DKP is not much at all.

Use Tearrin as an example. Here is someone who goes on a decent amount of raids (40-50% consistently), has been in the guild for a few months, and has attended others quest hits. Approving and running a raid for Tearrin is a no brainer.

Let's use the guild leader as an example!!!

Here is someone who goes on a decent amount of raids, has been in the guild for a few years, and has attended other quest hits. Approving and running a raid for Drannor is a no brainer.

I think its insane that ppl think its cool for someone who has been in the guild less time than ppl who have been ACTIVELY requesting hits, to be able to get help before the older person.

This is why we had a sign-up thread but ppl wanted to get their epic first so they ignored the line and just started screaming to the raid leader that THEY need help. Bullshit. What about the ppl patiently waiting for their help, how fair is THAT?

you have people like me that aren't working on epic 1.5 atm that shows up to all these hits and will still be charged the 20 dkp somewhere down the road if i ever decide to do it.

You have ppl like ME that are working on their epic 1.5 that shows up to as many hits as possible and wil still be charged 20DKP (60 total as of right now) if I ever decide to do it.

I love using the guild leader as an example of someone following the rules and waiting in line and getting fucked by greedy ppl that think the guild OWES them something after being here for a couple months.

What if the quester doesn't have 20DKP ?

They save up, like any of us would for any piece of loot.

Right now it's working on whoever helps the most is going to get the help.

I have been waiting since March, for example. I don't think the system is working, do you?

So if the person who "bought" the fight never helps anyone, I would still be willing to bet someone isn't going to go help them, and they might not get the raid force required

The lockout aspect should handle this. If someone who hasn't helped out wants help, we give them the benefit of the doubt. If they decide to never help out, they will always be locked out until they do for future help.

Also what about the people who recieved the 1.5 before this change. Making it free for them and cost for us seems a little unfair.

There was a time before we were DKP. I was there. Ppl were awarded loot for 0DKP. Was it fair for ppl to have to pay DKP for what was once free? The answer is on the DKP site ;)

Ok guys, leaving work. Awesome responses, plz don't take my input the wrong way.

If someone wants to set up their own hit, go for it. They don't pay anything and they have a great time in a non-dkp setup.

If someone wants the guild's official sanctioned help with something 14 ppl cannot bang out, then it will cost 20DKP.

That 20DKP was some number I made up that basically takes 2 weeks to accumulate. 2weeks is much less time than some ppl go without buying any loot at all.

I think that person should remain in the rotation until we deliver the services that person purchased.

Good thought there, if the hit doesn't happen due to lack of ppl, they stay in the rotation.
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Postby Neaolas » Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:35 pm

Why is everyone bringing Tearrin into this just because he requested a hit sometime? HE just made a post saying he is on his last hit, didnt say he wanted to be in front of anyone. From what I read just letting everyone know where he is at and would like to be put on the list somewhere. he didnt specify to be ahead of anyone..
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Postby Worff » Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:43 pm

Neolas.. Tearrin was mentioned as a good example and nothing negative was said about him at all.. he's just simply a good example to explain things.. so relax you spaz!! lol

Then the guild leader followed up using himself as an example. No harm done :)
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Postby Neaolas » Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:44 pm

o ok worff =p
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Postby bill » Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:48 pm

Merely comparing myself to someone that basically fits the typical member asking for help.

Tearrin was helping last night, in a non-dkp setting. So if anyone is going to get shit on for not helping, it won't be Tearrin.
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Postby Yoshikawa » Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:13 pm

Overall raid attendance comes to mind. That's a direct representation of how much a person helps the guild out. If you were to skip every Saturday's epic hits and made every other raid, your attendance would still be well below 75%.

this describes me perfectly, with 1 exception :: i cannot play on saturdays due to RL constraints, i maybe get 1 saturday off every couple of months and i dont know till late night the friday before, its not like i was skipping epic hits cause i wanted to, its because i dont have a choice. so would i be locked out for an undetermined amount of time because i cannot attend epic hits on saturdays ?
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Postby Skexis » Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:31 pm

OMG YES ... A: we should get DKP for ALL raids and B: if you want the WHOLE guild to come out and help you should have to spend some DKP on it .. like 20 per hit... this would also keep the annoying as hell "Hi I know I just joined you all yesterday but lets go get me my Epic not PLzz KK Thx" ... if they got the DKP to get the Raid then good for them and we should do it they earned it. I think most 1.5 Epics are about 5 raids ... at 20 per hit don't think 100 DKP is too for outta line for such a nice loot. .. thats my 2 cents.. o yeah probably should'nt charge DKP is we get our asses handed to us.. hehe think how much DKP Jum woulda had to spend on his epic if we charged for failures...
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Postby Nennie » Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:36 pm

Really though, how are people getting their epics? They're getting these raids together themselves and asking the guild. If you were to post a time and date for your epic hit I would be there if I was able to.

I personally feel the guild needs to take responcibility for itself. If the problem now is we don't have enough people logging on or going to these hits, what good is charging the quest person 20dkp? If qur was still in the guild and he bought a quest, would I go? No. He was a dick and was a dick to some people and I know a lot of people would feel that way too. And I have that choice as raiding is not required, and I don't mind losing the potential dkp. If someone who puts a lot of time into the guild posted one with a time, I would definately be there if I could.

I just feel DKP should not be used to have to buy the guilds time. If someone needs help on the epic and theyve put the time in there should be no problem them getting the support they need. I don't know what happened for your hit Way, but I doubt that would happen again, and I'd really be ashamed of the guild if it did.

Another observation is I think one of the officers made a while ago that interest in the epic day was low. Maybe the good out of this thread will be it will perk interests up. I think the person should take initiative for their hit and do what they have to to get the help they need. Which then brings up the fact if they want to do it on their own and enough people in the guild are willing to help, does person A who bought the last epic hit feel cheated cause they paid for it?

One more sugestion IF the dkp thing goes into effect. Why not charge the person based on the size of the raid needed?

Say 1-15 people 5 DKP...15-30 10 DKP....30-40 15 DKP...40+ 20 DKP.

I just was guestimating with numbers. I don't know what the epics require. That way if the person only needs a 12 person raid they arent charged the full 20. If more show up...Ok...but they are still charged for whatever the enounter requires.

And my other question is when are we planning to do these? We raid 4 nights a week, and with that we have our EP push. If this goes live we're going to get about 20-30 people wanting to buy epic hits, and for those big raids are probally going to need the full tuesday or thursday raid force. Maybe if we use the idea of smaller raid forces for smaller required raids, those could be set for fridays or saturdays or off days when we arent in EPs or doing whatever, and the big raid days for tuesdays and thursdays. We would be able to then bang out a bunch of quick ones on the off days, but the big ones would have to wait in line. And how would those be determined? Would it be "Ok rule has been changed, next people to leave message saying they want to spend the dkp on hits go...list starts now!" or is there a way to determine who will get to pay first? Whether we charge or not it isnt going to increase the number of people showing up on these low days.

And also one more thing. If this goes live, why not offer double dkp or 1 extra dkp for these hits? I think interest in them will increase, the people who don't have the dkp will be able to go to these events to get it up, and we will probaly get a lot more work done. The little insentive might inspire people to go increasing the population and likelyhood of a success than a failure going back into the rotation.

These are just sugestions, so no one flame me if you don't like any of them ;x Just stuff I'm rambling out and hopefully something good is in it.

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Postby Dethorx » Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:01 pm

I personally dislike the whole saturday epic hits. I can't attend raids etc on saturday due to previous obligations. Just about any other day i could make heck I missed so many raids on saturdays since I joined.
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Postby Worff » Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:12 pm

These are all some good ideas to think about. If anything it will bring Epic needs to the foreground of people's minds as well as the notion of being more available to help others out, especially if it's a guild-sanctioned raid.

As a big, happy group we have a lot of power, folks. Many Epic 1.5 hits are no joke. A lot have chests that spawn as a furthur incentive too. $

On that same note, if a raid is un-planned and a last-minute hit is being thrown together, don't get upset if there isn't a big turnout. Sometimes there will be, sometimes there won't.. depends how busy folks are atm.
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Postby Irish » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:11 am

okay so. you want 20 dkp for each hit? I agree with who ever said it... that can be alot for say like the rog and clerics because we have a few hits... 20 dkp is not to much in opinion....BUT...but.. I dont like that you lose it if no one shows up for your hit and you have to wait three times for it again that is not good I think. needs tuning hun but glad to see you trying to work on something with it I kinda like the idea.

just needs a little work hun :thumbup
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Postby Ranjaling » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:54 am

I voted no but also think there should be some restrictions in place, aka, "tuning"... Copy/pasted from other discussion below.

I don't know if I can rank them in such neat numbers. Like Worff said, who is to judge levels of helping? Worff spends as much time doing web stuff for TF as he does in the game, if not more. That kinda help isn't noticed by the masses.

I don't think people should be charged DKP to get help for their epic either. That's like punishing someone for asking for help.

I think the only criteria's/rules that should be made is these

1) A waiting period - perhaps 60 days of being a member before you can request a hit.

2) Lockout period - must wait 30 days before requesting a 2nd quest hit (win or lose on the prior request). This includes stuff like Ring Wars, etc too. Not just Epic hits.

Personally I liked the way Krysstian has been setting them up on a first come, first serve basis and making people come to the MB and taking the first 4 requests when he runs his epic raid nights.

Maybe implying minor rules like mentioned above so that it's not abused and X player gets help on 3 stages of his/her epic parts done before O player gets any is all we need and also prevents new members from doing what Sai said.
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