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Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:57 pm
by Jibvalde
Guess most of you know that TF just dont have the numbers to do much riading at the moment , Well have talked to Barbadis From Pak , think some of you have seen he runs OMM riads about once a week. well Pak Cafan is about the same as us in numbers and ability so makes sence to join up and raid stuff together we cant do alone.
1 Big issue is our loots systems we use DKP they do a Need Random system , So how we raid together and make it work , Well we know trying to get another guild to use our dkp system just wont work tomany of us are dkp whores and it would take them ages to up enought dkp to compete.

So how do we make it fair to both of us. my 1st thought is to 1 figure out what % of the raid is TF or Pak , if we are close to 50/50 its easy, split loots, raid leaders roll a Ran 1k . hi person chooses 1st item to be either dkp'd or rolled on by guild, if split is way off from 50/50 , say a 30/70 split, the guild with 70% gets 1st choice , them being the one to provide the majority of the people there for earning the best loot. ( oh and i dont think either guild would be way ahead on raiders bet it would be close all the time.) now heres an issue on the split that could come up Boxes do they count Yes/no . I can argue with my self on this topic for hours, Boxes do contribute quite abit to raids, but its still only 1 person playing that toon. so do we count them or not , for now I would like to say only count mains and not include boxes but that could change at the 1st raid.

So any comment concerns post here.

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:37 pm
by Meso
let the boxing player choose the toon at the beginning that will be eligible for loot. His other toon(s) will be eligible for rots?

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:24 pm
by Goofydoofy
I'd suggest using random no matter what on alliance raids. Even if it was 75% TF on a raid, the other 25% would have no chance at all for loot if they have no DKP points. It would make much better sense to use an even chance plan when raiding with another guild so everybody always has the same chance.

As for boxes, everybody should have a main. Loot goes to mains. Boxes get rot chances.

Or, you could have an officer from each guild random on each loot. Once the winning guild has been decided, they can do loot however they want. When a mob drops multiple items, you can either say every item is randomed for or split it. How you decide what is better to take and what should be given as a secondary item can be a problem, however.

I've always liked having one person in charge for each guild random for each item. Once the winning guild wins, they can do the loot according to their guilds loot procedures. Some nights a guild may get lucky and win everything, but so what? That is one night. There will be more loot. And next time, maybe the other guild will win it all. Look at the big picture here and in the end, it will even out. It gets way to complicated and time consuming to mess with trying to split the loot up evenly.

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:54 pm
by Worff
I agree with Goofy... would make it real simple that on alliance raid nights we just all do Need /random .. we kinda do that anyway on offnight raids that we deem non-dkp.

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:01 pm
by Jibvalde
Good Feed back so far, now to hit the guild up in general. i have a feeling either way will be fine with many folks ( as long as there is loot to be had who care how you get it).

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:02 pm
by Bilnick
This topic should be for members only.

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:52 pm
by Jibvalde
As the guild we would be raiding with are not in members only i did this post here .yes a member of Pak is at guest level in the forums.

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:29 pm
by Barbadis
Hail Tribal Fury!

I've had the distinct pleasure of meeting a bunch of you and I'm really looking forward to meeting the rest of ya. Thank you Ayragon for sending me the original PM regarding a possible Guild Alliance and of course thanks to rest of ya for your consideration.

Before I get into the dynamics of the Alliance just wanted to give ya a little bit background on Pak.

Pak’Cafan was brought to life by a group of friends and allies in 1999. The guild began in EverQuest, but as other gaming worlds were created, Pak’Cafan introduced shards to meet these new challenges. There are three primary virtues around which we, the members of Pak’Cafan, set our beliefs: Honor, Courage, and Family. This set of core values can be found in our guild and our members in every game Pak plays. We are a tight-knit community that enjoys playing together and raiding in a fun way. Pak is filled with people from all over the world, but our members primarily reside in North America.

Pak’Cafan was originally created with 8 Officers; Peregryn, Aalek, Kinek, Cougar, Ashirae, Feraldenar, Ainin, and Nurgar

p.s. Yes, 1 officer was missing that meeting. Nurgar (not pictured) makes the “n”

Pak'Cafan originally started on Tarew Marr and I was one of the first members to join Pak'Cafan after it was created. I played HARD for 2 years and then finished college, got married, and had a kiddo. Now that life has calmed down a bit I was blessed to be born again in the realm of Norrath 8 years later. During my absence; Pak'Cafan grew to one of the largest raiding guilds on Tarew Marr and then Drinal. They crushed everything in their path and were amongst the first to develop raid strategies before others. However, as time wore on.. several Pak'Cafan members retired, moved to a new shard (Another game with Pak), or melted into other elite raiding guilds on EverQuest.

When I returned from my break, I was the last remaining Pak'Cafan member. I decided to take matters into my own hands and prevent a guild with so much history slip away from memory. I have completely re-designed Pak'Cafan and changed their focus on the game. My goal is to bring the word "Fun" back into EverQuest. This is a new chapter for us and I have rebuilt a small army of casual players who are looking for a good time in the game. From February to July 2010 I have improved our roster from 156 to around 400+. All of our members are 17+ years of age and we have a wide variety of play styles ranging from returning players, to players who have been here since day 1 of the EverQuest Launch. We have an average of 10-35+ players on at a time and we enjoy raiding 1-2x a week.

As most of you know: I lead the Lord Nagafen and Lady Vox Raids a few times a week (usually on Tue, Thur, or Friday in the afternoon) and try to dump as many taskadds to Tribal Fury members when possible. For more details click HERE.

We have also raided Underfoot for named mobs and some time. Click HERE for details.

Again, my goal for every raid is simple.. if we have a good time together and fellowship, (regardless of loot/wipe etc) I consider it to be a success. Our raid leader, Malathornx, is currently focused on UF progression tasks, Raiding for Named mobs in UF, and exploring a bit more.

I would also like to see us doing some more "scripted" raids such as SoD content for some fun and a nice challenge.

Loot Policy for Pak'Cafan
I keep everything simple and oldschool. All loot is merely need before greed and usually /random 1 1000 for an upgrade. Because we are a casual raiding guild it fits our style best.

Alliance with Pak'Cafan and Tribal Fury:
I am VERY excited about this. I really feel like we can do some damage in the game and have a good time while we are at it. I would definitely like to see us Raid at least 1x a week in Underfoot for some named or even some scripted raids. I know Jibvalde and I were chatting about the Queen and Blackburrow raids, which would be a blast. Don't forget, several of our Pak members are returning players to the game and just need a lil boost in the beginning on strat for the scripted raids and auto-trigger setup.

Alliance Loot: Because Pak is "Need Before Greed" and Tribal Fury is Dkp... I'm sure we can work something out. I would like to keep it fair for everyone and definitely open to ideas.

There are a few ways we could do Loot:

Option 1: Jibvalde and I had an mutual agreement: If 20% or more of the Pak'Cafan members were in attendance that the loot system would switch from Dkp to "Need before Greed". Which I think is very reasonable. The downfall to that is it may discourage the occasional Pak member from hopping in your raid to help if they do not meet the 20% guideline and do not have a shot at loot. I however don't think it would be hard to muster up a small group and zip on over though.

Someone also mentioned the idea of doing: If 2 items drop off of a named mob or Quest Reward: 1 player from each guild (usually Guild Leader or Officer) would roll for first choice.. then the respected guilds could distribute the winning loot to their guilds as they see fit.

example: 2 items drop (Legs and Weapon). Jibvalde and Barbadis do a /random 1 1000 for first choice on the loot. If Jibvalde wins the initial roll, he can have first pick of the item. If Jibvalde chooses the weapon for TF then Pak'Cafan gets the legs. Then, TF can do their dkp system on the weapon and Pak does NbG on the Legs.

The issue that may arise is: If you only have 20% of the raid as Pak, would it still be fair to split the 2 loots up?

Option 2 All alliance raid loot is "Need before Greed" /random 1 1000 - regardless of loot drop, if 20% or more of the Pak'Cafan members are in attendance.

Option 3 All alliance raid loot is "Need before Greed" /random 1 1000 - regardless of who shows up to help.

Again, the last thing i wanna do is worry about loot. But i do want to make sure its fair for everyone. On a personal level..My vote would be for Option 2 because of your established DKP system. I do want to respect your loot policy.

Alts verses Mains: (Player coming to raid with 1 character)
There are always several feelings on the matter, especially with the abundance of alts in the game. However sometimes raids require players to bring their alts to balance out the raid.

example: "Player A's" Main Character is a Warrior. If the guild is too heavy with tanks and needs more healers, "Player A" could /camp their main and bring a healer alt to help balance out the raid. Personally, I feel they should be eligible for loot on their alt, especially it they took the initiative to help balance out the raid. I myself have several chars so I can stay flexible with the guild and assist with any of the raid needs. I am sure other players are in the same boat.

Multi-Boxing at Raid: (Player coming to raid with more than 1 character)
Several players are able to add a bit more to the raid by boxing. Many of them have 1 main and an army of alts like myself. Personally, I like seeing loot go to main characters, but I think it should be the players choice. I have seen many players defer a loot drop on their alt so that some one else's main character could have the loot. I do like alts getting loot, but its usually after the mains have had first pick. If you are a multi-boxer, I would like to see them mentioning to the raid leader, which character is the main for that particular raid. If a boxer parks their main so that they can balance out the raid, they should be able to pick a main for the night and be eligible for loot.

I'm a trusting guy and know players will do this fair and honestly.

Guild Hopping: I know the leaders and I have a "Gentleman's Agreement" that officers/members in the Alliance Guild would not recruit players from the opposing guild. We are all out to have a good time, share an adventure, and be tight with our family.

Current Raid Schedule:

Pak'Cafan Raid Leader: Barbadis - [Tuesday: Lord Nagafen 1pm EST] [Thur: Lady Vox 1pm EST] [Friday: Makeup day if raid was canceled. Lord Nagafen and/or Lady Vox around 11am-4pm EST]. Loot is "Need before Greed" /random 1 1000 because it is a pick-up-raid amongst many guilds. [Pick-up-Raid: Weekdays/Weekend 9-11pm (Pending Wife Faction)]

Pak'Cafan Raid Leader: Malathornx and Kshipper - Days vary, but usually Saturday Night around 9:30pm EST.

Barbadis's Current Play Schedule - Eastern Standard Time

Monday: 9pm - 11pm (pending wife faction)
Tuesday: 8am - 11am / 1pm - 5pm - (Evening is pending wife faction)
Wed: 9pm - 11pm (pending wife faction)
Thursday: 8am - 11am / 1pm - 5pm - (Evening is pending wife faction)
Friday: 8am - 6pm - (Evening is pending wife faction)
Sat / Sun: - Varies.

Please continue to post additional ideas, thoughts, concerns etc.

I will be out of town from Friday (7/16) until Monday (7/19), however look forward to hearing from everyone!

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:45 am
by Ayragon
This sound like its going to be a lot of fun......being that we usually start raids at 8pm EST, looks like Monday might be the best marriage......

I think we can split loots at the start with all /need /random.....once we're up to speed and working efficiently as an alliance we can start thinking about splitting loots back to each perspective guild so they can leverage their own loot system.

I'm so looking forward to getting Pallorax deaded on a regular basis......go go go Pak' Fury

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:20 pm
by Serano
I think the problem with doing pure Random is that the DKP players now are not gaining DKP by raiding - thus the eventual pay off of raiding and not looting - cumulatively awarding loot - sooner or later.

So by awarding DKP and then half the loot being DKPed - you continue to reward TF players for participating as they are accustomed to.

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:06 am
by Goofydoofy
"you continue to reward TF players for participating as they are accustomed to."

Sometimes you have to do what you are not accustomed to for the benefit of advancement.

Anybody in the military should know that!

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:45 pm
by giniluv
Hello TF! :wavey

I am quite excited about this proposed raid alliance! There are MANY Pak who are. There has been no official announcement that I have seen of days/times on which we would be joining forces. Barbadis has quite a busy schedule for the remainder of July, most likely absent until August 1. With that said, I did some browsing of your website and forums and cannot find a current raiding schedule.

I personally would love to jump in and join up on a couple raids or events. Not all that interested in loot persay, more wanting to get to know y'all and learn how you run things. I am sure other Pak members would dig it as well. If this request is ahead of an 'official' agreement/schedule please forgive me. I am simply anxious for the FUN! :)

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:39 pm
by Worff
Cool ... a cleric! :)

Np Gini, even pre-official stuff, you and others from Pak are always welcome to join us on any of our raids as a guest. Right now we're raiding named in open UF zones to gear peeps up in preparation for future TF as well as Allianced progression raids. Some of us have been enjoying the OMM raids Barbadis has been kind enough to invite us too also $$. Anyway, our "official" DKP raid nights are:

Tue: 9pm EST
Thu: 9pm EST
Sat: 8pm EST

Usually it will be Jibvalde or Carryion that has the raid tool for RI's.

Other nights we *may* also have "off-night" raids that are non-DKP (pickup style) where loots are /randed .. again it will usually be Jibvalde or Carryion that has the raid tool for RI's.

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:57 pm
by Carryion
I say we do a NEW DPK System JUst for This! Meaning A new DPK System that way No one gets the AX And recores can be keeped! I know its more work but this is the abuslute way to know what going where and who gets what!. Come on lets faces it! There are, and always will be, cheaters! All types, Even Running Box In driffent guild and you not even know it!

This way no matter what You have to earn the loot, and recores show who gets what and when.

Next now, Here a again! What woud you say! If I said this!

Who desides its a upgrade! You Me Then!

Jibvalde just like that belt you got last night! To me that was a small upgrade for you! Very small! I know for sure other there could of used it! and it would of been a Hug upgrade!.

Then why did no one bid? Out of respict and no way could they beat you on points.

Now in a raid. with 2 guild they would of took you out of the loop because it was not a hug upgrade! So who desided! I say DPK and your earn it! I wantg you to goto the Test Servet do a /testcopy After your there goto genreal and ask about there Raiding guild!

Yes 1 raid guild for the Hole server! All driffent guilds join 1 Raid Force under 1 dpk system! They do Tower and so on! How? They get all the Guilds on the server to come not just 1 guild. This is a option I thought about for years to bring here!

The problem! Having Some one with the Raid exprinces to do these raids and the officer to cornate eveything. The a Web sit
to host the DPK and forms and so on! They have 12 Plp that do all this! They get donation from driffent places.

But I seen this random shit destoy a guild! This is only my point of view! I am just being honest bro. In no way I want to hurt your feeling about loot! btw. Its just a point I seen come out in Muilty Guild Raids and plp desided who is elagble for loot.

But on the Test server, If we could form a Muilti Raiding guild like that! We all would start to rock!

Other Options.

Start Getting eveyone T9
Eveyone in the guild start recurting there friends.
Start Making it Manatory for having UF, (MPG compleated A MUST)
Start Raiding T9 from what I seen! (T9 KICK ASS)
Start a special recurting DPK System for evey 1 person you get to join who Is a main! Get 5dpk (Limmited 1 a month!) Person must stay in guild as a main and make FM. The day that person is Tag FM that person would then get his 5dkp. Also Give the extra 5dpk for the new FM like a gift! Recurting instantave thing.


The trick is we are at a stall, We need people. 15 to 18 to be persice! We have 15 to 18 plp. If them 15 people got 1 person . We would have a raid force.

I know some of you, are saying I know dont want to recurting. Or that the job for the Recurting Officers. But if each one would try. for 1 month. Think about it! We would be rocking in 30 days, If eveyone got 1 person.

I my self have a recurtiung system Iv been useing for years. It dont work 100% because a lot of people dont read ingame mail. I use the Guildrecurting Board and pull up evey one that meets my search 81 450aa and I put them in my friend list!

Then I send out a mass email to my friends. EQ dont see this as a SPAM and lets it keep its topic! I have a premade Welcome I just cut and past!.

But if others could just just watch plp with no guild tags or the people they group with. Then we start to grow.

But what evey you deside Im here bro!


Let the idias flow plp!

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:13 pm
by Ayragon
A journey of 1000 Tower flags start with but a single key.