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Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:30 am
by Goofydoofy
"Start Making it Manatory for having UF"

This can't be done and still be Tribal Fury.

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:21 pm
by Worff
So bascially your idea, Carryion, is a separate DKP system for Alliance raids. It's a valid idea to discuss.. although in both of our guilds I'm not worried whatsoever about cheaters... we both have good people in our ranks /nod. As far as upgrades go, it's up to the player if he/she thinks it's an upgrade... I won't get into micromanaging people's loot or how they spend their DKP, etc. I do agree with the Need before Greed concept tho, it's just not up to us to police it.

The main issue is finding a common ground that both guilds will be happy with when it comes to loots. Here is a recap as far as I can tell on the ideas so far:

1. The two Guild leaders (or an officer if one of GL's not online) will /rand to get first choice on loot.
2. Keep it simple, make ALL Allianced raids /rand on loot.
3. A separate DKP system for Allianced raids.
4. Incorporate Pak into current DKP system and give Pak raiders a fair amount of DKP based on average holdings of our raiders.

1. The two Guild leaders (or an officer if one of GL's not online) will /rand to get first choice on loot --- TF's loot would be DKP'd as usual, Pak's would be /randed among their member as usual for them. This works well if 2 loots drop, but can still work if odd number of loot drops, GL /rand winner gets to distribute the odd-numbered loot. One caviats being boxes and if attendance to a particular raid was way off balance to one side or the other, number mentioned in this scenario was 80/20 meaning if one guild composed 20% or less of a raid then the majority guild in attendance loot policies would prevail. --- Opinion: Decent idea, only complicator is the 80/20.

2. Keep it simple, make ALL Allianced raids /rand on loot. --- Concerns were stated that may have an adverse effect on TF's DKP system and the way it's been embedded in our TF economy for so long. The more you raid the more you earn and have stronger buying power for items you really want. It rewards and offers incentives to everyone equally (1 DKP per hour of raiding) but of course favors the raider who's been raiding for months/years. On allianced raids, if it was all /rand across the board, our existing economy above would be irrelevant, but it would make it fair to our Allies who have no DKP built up in our system, nor a DKP system of their own we could merge with ours. --- Opinion: Very simple to manage... but would need concensus among TF members on it for it to work, and it *could* affect our economy amongst our own ranks. One idea to handle that is have different raid nights where some are Alliance and some are TF

3. A separate DKP system for Allianced raids. --- Not a bad idea at all, would keep track of attendance and loot histories. There is a lot more to it though... policies for one, can be difficult and time consuming to hammer out. Example, like in our current DKP system, there is a whole page full of policies that govern almost every aspect and situation we could think of... such as a raider cannot go into the red and bid more than he/she has, leading to the question how do you begin bidding when everyone has 0 points. I guess we could start everyone off at 20. Then there is hosting and administration, and a genuine trust in the system and those who manage it. --- Opinion: Great idea, but legislative & administrative nightmare. Plus, Pak isn't accustomed to a DKP system so would be a drastic change for them, as much so as doing all /rand would be for us.

4. Incorporate Pak into current DKP system and give Pak raiders a fair amount of DKP based on average holdings of our raiders. --- Assuming this would be prior to starting the first Allianced raid. Numbers could be adjusted like who to take averages from and how high a percentage to award. --- Opinion: While it's a decent idea on how to incorporate another guild into a current DKP system, it would be unfair to Pak raiders who would be at a disadvantage under our top raiders for quite some time. This idea would be more suited for a merger rather than alliance.


As far as your other topics on recruiting and all Carryion... that's a topic for a different thread :)

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:10 pm
by Carryion
Undrstand what your staying but try this.

John goes to raid ne need a belt and it drops He roll athe 1000 th leader say to roll he win!
Next raid John See a Wrist drop he rolls and win
John dose this 3 time and then lose 1
Then John get lucky a gain and wins

Dont say this cant happen I v seen it
With in 1 week john win 5 loots. Out of the 8 Droped!

Now dose that sound fair? Roll are are ok for groups and some raid But if your going to do this on a reglar basice You need a DPK system..

And as far as recuiting No it dont! Because we dont have people! We going to Raid with other Guild It part of it! You may push it off to a other thread if you like. But it still stands!.

Its a optioin that can be done! As far as Eveyone on guild raidng with a other and letting 2 guild leader roll!
Here a other one

Other guild leader win 5 roll in a roll to pick first... That sound far! It will happen people will get up set!. That is why I wil not endorce any Muilty Guilded raid with out a sound DPK system! May be more work! The lay out alrdy done! Go look on test server form look what they got use it!

But if you all want to do this fine my me. There nothing this guild or the other combine can offer me. So I will not gain anything any ways!

How do you know there no cheaters! I seen plp in our guild possable useing MQ2. I dont like it. Its cheating no matter what you use it for! I dont know if they come out with a Cheat yet for rolling yet again. I seen then at 1 time. Even throw I dont use MQ2 And I hate it! I still read there forms to detect them! To see what there doing. and how there doing it!

They cast at a set Spell at % like I get blow 80% The bot will alwasy heal at that % or cast a certen spell at 98% like Slow! They alwasy stay Max Mellee. The list is endless on what they can or cant do! Random is one of them they can do!. You as a programer you know the feild is wide open.

Im just be honest and pointing out problem that can and will acurror some time down the line.

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:57 am
by Thulack
Hey TF. Hope everything is going well with you guys. Since i transferred back to CT i have even played much to do RL stuff but i still miss you guys and hope everything going well. Hope you dont mind but after reading this thread i thought of a option that might work with some tweaks but figured i'd just throw it out there.

My idea would be to take the the top 25 people in DKP ranking that are active(as in people who have 50%+ RA over the last 2 months. Find the average of their DKP and then either take that average and give it to all the PAK or other guilds your raiding with members or take 50% of the DKP average and split it. There are alot of numbers you could switch around like 75% RA or top 20 raiders or whatever but by doing this could keep the DKP system the way it is and just add DKP for people from other guilds.

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:30 am
by Worff
Thulack good to see you.. and thanks for the input :) Added it to idea list, however I think that would be better suited for a merger rather than an alliance.

Carryion.. hmm.. there are ways we could overcome the /rand thing you mentioned. For one, on the ALL /rand, could just say 1 loot per person per night. For the GL /rand (like a coin toss) would determine what guild got first choice on loot, the next target or next raid the OTHER guild could get first choice by default /shrug. There are ways around that IMO.

As you can tell, this topic is very sensitive, but don't forget our ultimate goal for BOTH guilds is to hit progression raids we cannot do alone. Loot is secondary. First priority is fun and progression $$$

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:48 am
by Bilnick
I haven't raided in a few months, so I would understand if my opinion doesn't carry much weight, but anyway...

Forget about TF's current DKP system and whatever points people have accumulated. TF has essentially gone bankrupt and its stock (DKP) is worthless. Killing group mobs with a dozen people and rewarding DKP and auctioning loot is silly. Anyone who wants to raid is not going to stay in TF as long as the "raids" are mobs they can grab a couple of friends and camp for anytime of the day.

My suggestion would be to ally with PakCafan and use the /random 1000 method, for at least the first couple of months. It is simple and requires no administration. The raids for the beginning are likely to just be Naggy, Vox, Rottrued, and Queen Malarian anyway. If the alliance is successful and people start coming out of the woodwork, then maybe a system that rewards the more dedicated people in the alliance might be discussed.

For now though, TF needs to raid raid mobs or people will continue to drift away.

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:12 am
by Worff
Uh... that's why we're talking about an Alliance is to get back to progression raids. In the meantime shall we just sit in GH and twiddle our thumbs? The concept of taking a cannon to a knife fight is serving two purposes... getting peeps gear (some of which dont get groups often) and keeping the economy flowing, even if it's just a trickle. So we all got some cheap stock shares, but that is only temporary, the market will rise again. We're also getting people T8 and T9 access.

I do agree with the just /rand ALL Alliance raids (as I said in first post)... it's the simplest solution.

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:57 am
by Bilnick
My point was quit worrying about DKP and raid raid mobs. It has been almost 2 weeks since this thread was started. How many alliance raids have there been? I log in a few times a week and have seen nothing in the GMOTD or here on the MB.

Killing UF group mobs IS twiddling thumbs. I see a lot of ex-TF applying to other guilds and almost always the reason they give in their app for leaving is that TF doesn't raid anymore (or kills group mobs as raids....same thing really)

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:40 pm
by Worff
So your point is get on with the Alliance raiding... yes I agree... and I agree /rand is fine for those events... but we're not the only ones involved so listing all the options and discussing them is the right thing to do. In all fairness tho I think it's time for a vote.

{sigh} Killing those mobs is not twiddling thumbs lol... peeps needed the gear and if they could have grouped that gear they would have already.

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:01 pm
by Jibvalde
we need to have at least one raid soon with Pac just to get our feet wet if you will. a few of us have raided with Pac on OMM raids but needs to be more. let see what we can get set up for saturday or some day next week.

And im thinking of a modified DKP system , a little be of what The resolution is using. start with the top 18 thats 3 groups worth of raiders or half a raid force , members DKP find a avarge and start at that point , DKP earned at the raid is equal to the dkp spent. so no loots no dkp lots of loots lots of dkp , this does make it better for people to show up to every raid not just raid every now and then.

Well more to do than i have time for. keep talking about it.

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:59 am
by Goofydoofy
You also might consider exchanging phone numbers. Leader and raid officers. It is much easier to come up with something alot faster when you are actually talking about it in real time. Or, over Internet voice chat. I guess that would be more your thing. You could have a system set up and a date/time for the first raid in 15 minutes. This could take months.

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:33 am
by Meso
or years even :?

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:16 pm
by sinadar
sorry been absent recently , but i have managed to enjoy the experiance of raiding vox/naggy with Barb, i had a good time and everyone was respectful.

i feel TF has come to a road where the focus of family in our guild has come to a point of looking for a long lost sister or brother, Alliance is the choice solution
DKP is a system we've hosted for many years, and lately the /random 1000 rules has been more common lately, even tho i favor the DKP system (i'm one of the dkp whores) of earning and spending when u really want something, but the /random 1000 for groupable gear is justifyably fitting.

I think with Alliance, we might have the numbers to get back to some of the tougher raids of progression/scripted raids and putting dkp on the back burner is the logical choice, we are all on to have fun and raiding nights are starting to get stale... time to spice it up :thumbup

i look forward to raiding with you all :cheers

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:31 pm
by Serano
Robag - this just isn't what our forums are for. I will be deleting your post in a few days.

Edit: Robag's post deleted

Re: Alliance raiding with other guilds.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:00 am
by cliffy
Not really sure if anyone cares to hear my opinion but I do have quite a bit of experience handling this type of thing. I am one of the main organizers/raid leaders of alliance raids on one of RBB's off nights and are currently helping out White Wind, EKON, and The Misfits so I understand how distributing loot over a wide variety of people can be difficult. After all things were considered we decided to just use the /ran 1000 method on loot and just limit people to 1 loot and 1 rune per night. We also make it the responsibility of the officers in each guild to keep track of people rolling to make sure that mains are rolling on stuff first. This has worked very well for us and everyone seems to be very happy with what they get out of it. Ventrillo helps out a ton on these raids so you might also consider having everyone that is going to attend the raids set up their accounts ahead of time and make sure that they get everything working. Hope you guys get the ball rolling again and if you guys need any tips on the raids just let me know. I hope this was helpful as I am kind of falling asleep at the moment.